The Most Effective Way to Sell a Remodeling Project with Duane Becker

Dennis Oz: Welcome to another episode of remodeler success. With all these questions and the answers that we’re trying to give you guys, we are bringing you the expert in the field. We got a lot of questions about training, sales training, staff training in the showroom, or like in the field. That’s why we decided to bring you a key speaker and expert in the field. And now we’re going to talk about training, reflecting this training to our sales and increasing revenues. Duane Becker is with me today. Duane, welcome to the show.

Duane Becker: Thank you very much, Dennis. I’m really, really excited that you invited me to be here.

Dennis Oz: Great. Could you please introduce yourself?

Duane Becker: Sure. My name is Duane Becker. I am the owner and founder SaPré Training: Sales, and presentation training for artistically minded individuals and companies. And I have been in the kitchen and bath industry for about 17 years. I started with, starting with working at a local custom cabinet and millwork shop. Then moving into the kitchen design portion of this industry, and more recently a factory representative for a national cabinet company, consulting with designers on the side to help them increase their business.

Dennis Oz: Wow. A lot of things have changed in the industry in 17 years. One thing is always right there: The importance of training, That’s why I would like to talk to you about that because, yes, where we have the good team in place with the trained staff and this is how we actually increase the revenues when I was working as a kitchen designer, I was trying to train myself, trying to watch different things and read different things. I would like to hear from you. Could you please tell us a little more about the importance of training in sales?

Duane Becker: Sure. I first started to pick up on this when in my second career path, it was a traditional sales role, not in the kitchen and bath industry. And then when I did get into the kitchen and bath industry and started to design and sell my own work,I also was working alongside many other designers in my area. And what I had discovered is that there are many designers out there that are very talented and can do some brilliant, amazing work, but they are very challenged sometimes with processes in which how to sell their product or project or work. And so ever since I had been working one-on-one with designers or in small groups, I also try to interject with them, methods that they can use to help present their work and sell their work more efficiently. What can they do to communicate better with their client, what can, they do to, get into their client’s psyche a little bit to understand what’s going on from the customer’s point of view and how to work with that and generate, not only more income but just more general sales. So I try to incorporate, sales techniques with presentation techniques, along with tips and tricks on how to do a design and incorporate those together, in training.

Dennis Oz: We are talking about building a value it’s not just like being an order taker. It’s like understanding the customer in front of you, the homeowner’s needs, or could be any kind of maybe a commercial lead, or like a person that is sitting in front of you and you’re talking about the details of the project. This value is really important. You talk about different sales tactics, also how they build this value and we just reflect on our sales processes.

Duane Becker: That’s a great question and that is different for everyone, of course. And also it’s different depending on the consumer or client that’s in front of you. Building value or at least I like to see it as providing value is going to be different depending on your client. Because what is perceived as valuable is going to be different from one person to another. So part of your job as a designer is trying to figure out as early on as possible, what is intriguing or important to your particular client, and then what you can do to take that may be a slight step further to not only provide that value that will make your client excited and want to work with you. But also when I say take it a step further, providing that little bit of value that is of unexpected value, that they were never. In the million years’ dream that they would be getting from you now, that’s where the creative part of any designer needs to come into play. And you’ve got to think out of the box a little bit, as far as what that unexpected value might be. Something simple as an example would be even once a client visits a showroom, and they haven’t even signed up with you yet to do a project. Why not send them a handwritten card, thanking them for their visit that’s something that most people never get anywhere else, and that will be of unexpected value. And that’s just a simple example just to get people thinking about those sorts of things.

Dennis Oz: Those are amazing tactics. No one is providing that kind of value or just like going there and saying:” “Hey, thank you so much for giving us a visit. I hope you like what you see.” Providing that value is pretty much like, it’s a process. We need to educate our clients, right? It’s not like: “Hey, come here. This is your order, and go back.” It’s not like selling a specific product. There is a lot of personalization in the products and also the processes. that’s why it’s making that value, right? That’s what you’re trying to say, I guess right?

Duane Becker: You can’t rely on the product you’re selling or the price point of the product you’re selling to create the business for you or to generate sales for you. Buying any kind of interior remodeling project, whether it be kitchen, bathroom, or interior design, is a completely emotional choice on the part of the client. They’re going to buy based on their overall experience with their designer. How they like, what was being said to them naturally the nature of the project that was presented to them, and whether they liked the proposals on what was done and what was created and what was shown, but that overall buying process how pleased they are with that will determine their decision to buy or not. It’s not about the price. It’s not about the product, it’s their overall experience. And if you can provide them that positive overall experience, so they want to work with you and no one else, then the price will become irrelevant because the value will far exceed any kind of price that represents.

Dennis Oz: Right. That’s another point and I really wanted to ask you this question. What is the most effective way of selling your project?

Duane Becker: That depends on the project, right. But you know, it, in order to be really effective, the first thing there’s a couple stepping stones or starting points, I would say. First of all, you have to remember that doing any kind of large remodel project is, from the point of view of your client, that’s an enormous undertaking. Yeah. You, as a designer are doing this day in and day out. Your client probably is not, and they may have not never even done this before ever. So consider that every little bit of information you’re giving them can be very overwhelming. So don’t the first thing is, do not to overwhelm them with too much information all at once. Take it in small steps, one step at a time, and make sure they understand each part of the process as you go through it before you move on to the next step. One thing you can do is talk to them about how you understand how overwhelming this can be, that will, hopefully, appeal to their senses of that they will know that you understand what they’re experiencing. You know, a lot of people fire off so much information about the product and the process that customers can easily feel like you’re hitting them with a fire hose and they’re completely overwhelmed. And an interesting statistic is that as many as 30% of buyers who go out to shop for a new kitchen and bathroom remodel project end up not doing anything at all. And the reason for it that they gave was because there were too many choices and it was too overwhelming and they decided to just live with what they got because it’s too much.

Dennis Oz: 30%, 30% over projects they are done before getting started.

Duane Becker: So, yes, most of the time or at least 30% of the time that means that you as a designer, your biggest hurdle is, or your biggest competitor is not the next door shop. Your biggest competitor is overcoming the status quo, making your customers want what you’ve done for them and want the experience that you’ve created with them so badly that they are willing to go through that uncomfortable change and disrupt the status quo to get their new projects. That much of the time, or at least a third of the time is your biggest hurdle.

Dennis Oz: I always say that keeping it in the kindergarten level, is not like a lot of details, putting a lot of details. Right. Maybe not mentioning that crown molding height at the beginning of the project, but I’ll talk about some basics, right? That’s what you mean?

Duane Becker: Well, yeah, that, plus when you do need to explain something to them or show something to them, make sure they understand what you’re talking about. The simple explanation I like to use is, okay, so you’re doing a kitchen design and you’re showing them how the cabinets are fitting up against the wall. If you throw out something like, ”Okay, well this is going to fit fine because there’s a filler over there.” Okay. Do you know what I mean by a filler? Do you know what that is? Do you know what that means? If they say no, you can explain. And then the next time you need to use the term, now they’ll understand what you’re talking about, but don’t expect that they’re going to understand it. And that’s where, you know, when we’re all in, been in the industry for so long, we use these terms, not thinking that this client probably doesn’t understand half of what I’m talking about, but they’re not going to stop you, mid-stride to ask you what you mean by a filler plus lots of times to them that might even be an embarrassing question. So lose the lingo. That’s what I like to say, or at least find the lingo before you use it more than once. If you’re talking, you mentioned crown molding. If you’re talking crown molding, don’t just willy-nilly explain that, oh, we’re going to put some starter molding up there and you can attach the crown to that. What’s starter molding? Do you know what I’m talking about by that? And if they don’t explain it, draw an image, draw a diagram so that they understand what you mean by that. And much of the time when you do that, if you slow down your presentation and you take the time to explain certain things like that, I can almost guarantee you that the next designer and the next shop won’t be doing that. And they will come, your client will come back to you or if they’ve already shopped, they will want to stay with you because you’re taking the time to educate them on what you’re presenting them and what you’re showing them. And they will like that.

Dennis Oz: Because at the end of the day, they don’t have an answer for a question like: “Would you prefer B36 or B33 here?” Because they don’t even know what these numbers and appropriations are.

Duane Becker: Right. Forget the B33 or B36. Do you want a 33-inch white cabinet or a 36-inch wide cabinet? Not a 4DB24, but a bank of four drawers. That’s 24 inches wide. Yeah. Get rid of the silly nomenclature that you and I pass back and forth every day, lose that. You need to get rid of the industry lingo so they understand what you mean.

Dennis Oz: Right? Well, of course, training is another process, starting and giving information, how to deal with the clients, all these things. Just want to ask you this question. How do you inspire kitchen & bath professionals when you’re especially doing your training and also at least starting your training? How do you inspire them?

Duane Becker: I’m a little biased or opinionated in that sense. I think I inspire them because I show them new ways to approach common challenges, and by asking them questions about the challenges, they then usually, understand that I know what they’re doing every day, and I understand what they’re trying to get through and what some of the hurdles are that they’re trying to get over. So for example, I was working with a client, last year, and, at the end of her presentation, much of the time, she was having some trouble when the client initially wasn’t ready to make the purchase yet, for whatever reason. And I said, okay, so you’ve done the presentation. You’ve presented the price. Then how do you handle the next phase of the conversation? And she said something to the effect of, well, I usually look at my client and say; ”Well, would you like to set up a follow-up appointment where we can do this and this and this, and sign the paperwork and do a deposit check?” And I said stop. And I said that’s the difficult part right there. She said, what are you talking about? I said not, would you like. And a lot of, what I train people on is how to phrase certain things so that you move the transaction in the direction that you want it to go. Not would you like to, something a little more instructive? Okay. It’s kind of like how people talk to a call to action on a website. It’s the same thing with a client one-on-one, it’s a call to action. More likely you should look at them and say, ”At this stage, most of my clients set up a follow-up appointment with me, where we can sign the paperwork, do a deposit check whatever’s needed. Why don’t we meet next Monday or Thursday, whichever works best for you where we can do that. Does that make sense to you?” That’s different from ”would you like to”, because the easy answer to, ”would you like to” is; ”Yeah, I’m not ready to at this, well, we’ll call you back and let you know.” But if you phrase it a little bit differently, you can set that next appointment and you’re all set to go. Little things like that and how to work with the clients so that you are in control of moving the transaction forward.

Dennis Oz: Amazing insights. I also worked as a kitchen designer. I never thought about that. What you’re saying is pretty much like not only for kitchen and bath, I think it just goes for every other industry in the world. I’m just saying this is a very interesting point to understand the giving that call to action and telling people: “Hey, at this point, We usually schedule another appointment right after that.” This is a great, very strong statement for a client: We need to do this because they will understand the necessity of scheduling another appointment with you in the future. So after asking the question, what’s the best time of day for you is going to make things easier. At least when they say yes, they will put more importance on that appointment, right? There will be no show ups after that,

Duane Becker: The idea is asking them to make a choice. ”Okay, I guess I’m going to come in again. Which day is it going to be?”, As opposed to making a choice on whether they’re coming in again at all, you’re kind of making that assumption. If they really felt the need to not come in again at all, they’re going to tell you. They’re going to come right out and say; ”Well, we’re still not really comfortable with proceeding further. We’re going to have to let you know.” If they’re that uncomfortable with it then they will say so. But most of the time they’re not, it’s just that they’re not, they’ve never done this process before, remember that, and they’re not familiar with what that next step should be. So you’ve got to guide them through that and that’s okay. It’s kind of like just to throw out another statistic, out there in the field of sales, in all of sales industries on average, do you know that the salesperson, approximately 60% of the time after they do a presentation or whatever, never asked for the sale,

Dennis Oz: 60%

Duane Becker: on average, 60% of the time. And I have seen it with designers, for example, I’m sitting next to them and, people are walking off, they have all the information they need and they’re leaving. And did you ask them whether they would like to make their purchase? No, you didn’t. And it’s like you put in all that work, all that effort just ask them for the sale. If you don’t, there’s almost, you’ve probably felt it as a designer before, there’s a tension in the room when that question is lingering up in the clouds and you know you should be asking that question. And the customer, believe it or not, many times is actually a little disappointing. If you don’t ask that question, they walk out, like there was something that they missed because you never asked them to make the purchase. So don’t forget to do that. I mean, it doesn’t have to be, confrontational either. You don’t have to say, so you ready to buy, you know, that’s a little more front than most people want to be. You can just say simply as; ”So are there any other questions you have before we move forward?” That’s a very nice way of putting it or, ”Why don’t we set up an appointment where we can start the process? Let’s do that.” Okay, great. Another, just nice way of moving the process forward. But, yeah, it’s, it doesn’t have to be a confrontational conversation. So yeah, a lot of what I do with designers is train them on how to make those certain phrases casual. And, much of it, means it has to be scripted. You’ve got to plan out how you’re going to say certain lines and sentences. And a lot of people are very hesitant to want to do that because they think, well, then it’s going to sound canned. If it isn’t, if you put it in your own words and you practice it to the point where it’s casual and comfortable for you, it’s not going to sound scripted, and just come up with a phrase that is comfortable for you and repeat it so that you’ve got that in the back of your head and you can draw from that whenever you need to. But that’s one method that can work really well. You know, a lot of, a lot of kitchen designers I talk to are always talking about customers are talking about price and how they want to negotiate the price.

Dennis Oz: First question. Should we negotiate? What do you think about negotiating and if you do need to do that, what are your tips?

Duane Becker: First thing is, you need to find out why your customer feels that it should cost a less first thing. And so listen to what they say when they discuss wanting a lower price much, probably at least half of the time and I’m guessing a little bit, but possibly half of the time, they’re not actually asking you to lower the price, they’re expressing their disbelief at how expensive it actually is. It’s just an emotional reaction to the price. So if they say something such as and here are the phrases that I hear much of the time when it’s like that is; ”That’s more than I was expecting. I wasn’t expecting to pay that much.” Things like that. A great response to that would be something to the effect of; ”you know, what I understand is most of my clients have that kind of reaction because when you’re redoing a kitchen, by the way, it usually ends up costing more than people were expecting.” That’s it. It’s not them asking you to lower the price. It’s their reaction to what the price is. If anybody has ever for comparison, if anybody is ever gone shopping for a new car, for example, and you have, let’s say you aren’t familiar with pricing on cars, you hadn’t looked for a car in 10 years, much of the time you’ll look at those prices and go ”That’s way more than I was expecting for a car of this size” or whatever well, that doesn’t mean you’re not buying one. It’s just your reaction to the price. That’s the first thing is recognizing when they absolutely need a lower price or it’s just them reacting to the price. Then if they do need a lower price, make sure your initial price, of course, is very competitive in your market. Because, for obvious reasons, but, if they do need a lower price, do not lower your price without removing something from the package. That’s it. If you lower your price, you’re going to give them the impression that your prices are arbitrary and that what you’ve presented is not worth the value that you originally demanded. And you’re giving them those signals. And once you’ve opened up the flood gates, you are, the negotiation might as well, never even then, they’re going to keep asking for a better deal somewhere else, in maybe their fixtures or whatever. So yeah, remove some labor, remove some elements, change some elements. If you’re doing a kitchen design, for example, look at a lesser expensive countertop, maybe change their door style, their finish maybe. They don’t destroy the overall look of their kitchen. But look for some options on lowering the price by removing some items from the overall project or changing some items and the overall project to drop the price. But don’t, don’t just drop the price arbitrarily and make up some fictional excuse as to how you’re getting away with it. They’re going to see right through that and you will suddenly be banking, almost no margin, and it’s not worth your time. If you can’t provide what they are looking for at the price point that they need, hopefully, you can determine that very early on in the process so that you can then be honest and upfront with them and say, ”Look, based on your budgetary needs, I can’t provide what you’re looking for for that kind of money.” They might pursue it further and say, ”Well, what could you do?” And now you can look at options for more money maybe, but at least that way you’re not left having to negotiate the price in the end because they already, you already know they can’t afford it. So have that budget discussion as early on as possible. So you can set their expectations right. The example I like to use is I have had on occasion, some designers that, do not get the budget number, from their client, and, you know, I always say, if you’re going to a real estate agent, they’re going to need to know how much money you have to spend on a home because you’re going to waste their time. If they show you a $500,000 home and you can only afford a $350,000 home, it doesn’t make sense. They need to know what you have to work with so they can target the right properties. Same thing here in the kitchen design, you need to know their budget so that you can make the proper choices so that you can hopefully stay around that number for them. They need to understand that that’s why you’re asking them that number. Because a lot of people are hesitant to give away that number because they think you’re going to spend every single penny they have. That’s not why it’s because Mr. Customer, it doesn’t make any sense for me to design an $80,000 kitchen if you have $30,000 to spend, I need to know how much money you have to work with. So I can find out if I can accomplish this for you. The other, another thing about the budget is that, that way you can also prepare them mentally for when you do present the price. So let’s say they say, you’ve gone through their needs on their project and you understand what they need. And they say, ”I need to stay within, around $40,000.” You can then look at them and react appropriately and say, ”Based on what you want to accomplish, you need a bigger budget for that.” Or, yeah, ”I think we can work with that.” Or, ”Boy, that’s a little snug, that’s challenging, but let me see what I can do.” That’s my favorite one, because then when you do your presentation and you end up being, you do a presentation where it says 48,000 instead of 40 you’ve already kind of set them up for that. Because as I already said, that’s going to be a challenge. But then keeping your back pocket some options for what can I remove if I need to lower that?

Dennis Oz: Exactly amazing, amazing information here. I wish I knew this when I was working as a kitchen designer. You’re a little late to teach me all of these. I’m glad that our listeners can learn from you right now, Duane, because I was reading your blog posts on SaPreTraining.com. Even your blog posts are like articles, they’re like academical level articles. These articles are already giving a lot of insights and information and a lot of tips to grow businesses.

Duane Becker: It’s hard though, isn’t it? I mean, especially right now where the most kitchen and bath designers I know are up to here and work. So they’re moving like this all day long. So you don’t take the time to sit and analyze so much, as much as one would like. Your process, what you do or analyze, do a self-assessment analyze your last presentation and how it went, what worked well, what didn’t work well, to take the time to slow down and actually think about that to take time, to slow down and think of preplanning, how you’re going to present certain parts of the project. What you’re going to say when your client says that’s too expensive. You’ve got to take the time to prepare those things so that when those items do come up as inevitably, as they’re going to, you’re prepared for it. What’s amazing to me is, not amazing, but because I was doing the same thing when I was selling kitchens, you know, so much of the objection that a kitchen center gets is about price. Well, if that’s true, why don’t you have five or six responses to the price question prepared in your head, ready to go [00:30:00] so that when it does come up, depending on your client, you can pick one of those five and just go to that and you’ve got it memorized. And you know what you’re going to say and your know how you’re going to handle that situation because you already know what’s going to happen. So take some time to think that through and think about what you would say and prepare yourself for it because it’s going to have. And, you know, what’s going to happen. You’ve been there.

Dennis Oz: Right when we have the sales. Of course, this is, basically the moment of getting a yes answer from the clients. Of course, we can’t sell to everyone. There should be some clients who will possibly go with someone else. But do you think it’s important to have a self-assessment for a salesperson?

Duane Becker: Absolutely. You’ve got to stop and think about your last presentation, for example. You’ve got to do a self-assessment on everything, but your last presentation, for [00:31:00] example, think about when you’re when you captured the attention of your client when they started to sit up in their chair and get really excited about what you were saying when they kind of slumped back and kind of glazed over and you are losing them. Think about what was going on during that time. Think about what worked well and what didn’t. So that next time you do a similar presentation, you can tweak it and grab the stuff that worked well and dwell on that and forget the stuff that didn’t go so well. Think about that. The other thing too, that a lot of people sometimes don’t do, as far as assessing yourself is if you are in your own showroom, assess what your customer experiences in the showroom, from their perspective, you’re sitting behind the desk all day, walk in the front door and see what they say. Look at everything from their perspective and assess what you see and how it works and whether you think it works and what doesn’t work. But kind of turn off your intelligence switch because you’re in the industry and think about it from someone who’s not in the industry and how you’re approaching them. But yeah, you really have to take the time to really kind of assess everything you do at some point. Absolutely. Very important.

Dennis Oz: Great. Yes. If you understand the numbers, let’s say how many clients we close, and how many of them? That’s an interesting and also important insight for us to understand how we are selling. If the number is so low, of course, we need more training. All the objections that they have, we cannot really answer these objections at that moment in time. And that’s why they feel like they will go with someone else or maybe, just what you mentioned in the beginning. Maybe they will feel really insecure, and they will say: “Well, you know what? We’ll stop, we are not going to remodel our kitchen or bathroom. Looking at the self-assessment, that’s what I understand from what you said is important to know what we are doing and how we perform and try to see the things in our client’s eyes, and put ourselves in the shoes of our clients. Today, walk into your store and see how it looks, and how you feel. Just walk in and try to see what’s going on. And how do you feel? You’re right there in that display, do you think it just reflects what you are doing. Maybe you’re doing a great job, and all your remodeling projects are great, but maybe the display right there doesn’t really show how great things you are doing. It’s all about like the first impression. I will go back from there, there are so many different questions that we received about kitchen design and project management. Do you think being a good kitchen designer also means that you are a good project manager? What do you think?

Duane Becker: No, it doesn’t. I mean, there’s a, there’s a reason why, some slightly larger, kitchen design firms have standalone project managers. That’s what they do. Just because you’re a brilliant kitchen designer doesn’t mean you can manage a project. Absolutely not. That’s a whole different skill set. You might be able to, maybe you do, maybe you do excellent at doing both, but not necessarily. You know, a good verse kitchen designer, in my opinion, is a very artistically minded person. And from that perspective, sometimes that sort of person has difficulty with schedules, planning, budgets, scheduling different contractors to show up, and communicating all this to the client. That can be a challenge. Just as a simple answer, I would say no, if you’re a great designer that does not mean you can be a project manager, maybe you can, if you can, great but not necessarily.

Dennis Oz: Got it. Got it. All right. Great, Duane, most of our listeners and also our audience, let’s say our general audience are business owners, and they are trying to train their designers and also salespeople in the showroom. These people are selling kitchen designs, bathroom renovation projects, and sometimes even full home remodels. But most of our audience here as business owners, they’re trying to build up a team. So, what are your tips for these business owners who are training their newly hired staff, designers, or salespeople at their showrooms?

Duane Becker: Well, the first thing is obviously you want to take the time to train these newer people on the finer aspects of design. Of course, that is such a basic concept that I don’t think I need to say that to anybody who is hiring a new designer. But the other thing they really need to train on and sometimes most of these, say, managers or owners, don’t have experience with is how they can sell their product or project or work. That’s a whole other discussion. And, so what I do is I work with designers, understanding what they do every day so that I can help them with how they can present and sell their work. But I would highly recommend that they either find somebody, as a sales trainer that has some understanding of their business or else that sales trainer isn’t going to help too much. And have them work with their clients either individually or as a group or somebody like myself who can go in and work with a group and do some sales training with regard to how it can relate to the kitchen and bath industry. If that is not an option, then I would strongly recommend, that they encourage their designers to pick up a couple of good books in sales and they will discover that they can apply most of those techniques to what they do every day in the kitchen and bath industry.

Dennis Oz: Wow, great, Duane. For all our listeners, if you look for the SaPré Training website as a digital marketer, I can tell you that website is just shining, and I’m really amazed at the quality and especially informative part of your articles on your website. So thank you so much for sharing all this information. That is really amazing to get the help of the experts in the fields and trying to convey this information to us is always great. Duane here at this moment, I’d like to talk about SaPre Training. What do you offer? Let’s say, if someone here, they are interested in working with you to train their staff in order to take their business to the next level. How do you help them?.

Duane Becker: So there are a number of ways I can do that. You’re not going to find a lot of details on the website about how I go about doing that, but, and please don’t criticize the website. I made it myself.

Dennis Oz: Yeah, that’s great. Isn’t it to Mike and I’m telling you it’s great. Did that.

Duane Becker: Essentially, what I can arrange is look, I can speak in front of your teams and work with them to develop techniques that they can go and use immediately to help them increase their business and work with their clients. I can arrange it and do it as a group. I can do it on a one-on-one individual basis by phone or virtually or face to face. I’m pretty flexible with that, what I would encourage anyone to do. And I’m going to spell that out just in case it’s S A P R E training, sapretraining.com, which stands for sales and presentation training. And you can contact me through that and what I do is I offer a half-hour free consultation so we can discover if we’re going to be a good fit and I can actually help you with what you’re trying to achieve. But I developed the company to help kitchen and bath designers and artistically minded people to take what they know, help them with that, and help them increase their sales. Please contact me if you’re interested at all. And I’d be happy to talk with you about how I might be able to help.

Dennis Oz: Guys Duane is here. He has like 17 years, or like almost like two decades of information here. You may have some points that you feel like you definitely need some professional help with. I know that most of our listeners over here may feel like, at least how to answer an objection that you have from a homeowner. How to answer that question, especially for pricing. Most of the objections come from pricing, but what if you’re just using a really advanced language and you’re scaring your clients before they were starting the project. So there are so many different things that you need to consider when you are facing your clients. That’s why Duane Becker is here, he will be here with his website SaPreTraining.com and I would like to thank him. Thank you so much, Duane. Thanks so much for coming here today and joining us. Do you have any final words?

Duane Becker: No, but thanks, Dennis. If you get me going about sales and how it relates to the kitchen and bath industry, you may have discovered that it’s hard to stop me. I’ll go off on tangents, but I love talking about this. So this has been a lot of fun. Thanks a lot.

Dennis Oz: Thanks so much, everyone for joining us today, that was another episode and we are going to see you the next time. Goodbye.