Adapting to New Market Conditions: Kitchen & Bath Industry Edition

Dennis Oz: Welcome to Remodeler Success Podcast. We are here for another episode and I’m really excited for today’s episode, because we are gonna be talking about the industry insights and supply and demand and industry problems, like the forecasts and those kind of things. I was waiting for this podcast for a little while because yes, we are getting so many different questions about the industry. We are really good at answering these digital marketing related questions, but yes, some questions that we have over here, it’s not possible for us to give you guys a response. That’s why we have a key speaker today. Eric Finnigan is with me Eric, welcome to the show!

Eric Finnigan: Thank you so much for having me, Dennis. I’m really looking forward to the conversation.

Dennis Oz: Perfect. Perfect. Could you please introduce yourself?

Eric Finnigan: Sure. Yeah, I work with John Burns Real Estate Consulting. We have a lot of different functions within the company, but the group that I work in is the building products research team. Specifically, I cover the pro-remodeler space. So this is a huge industry and a lot of our clients are people like building product manufacturers, dealers, lumber yards, and they want to know what’s going on with pro-remodelers, people like kitchen and bath designers, showrooms. They want to understand that end user of the market. Not just the remodelers, but the remodeling customers as well. So one thing that we do is, we survey pro-remodelers every quarter, we try to hit 400 to 500 responses and we have a pro-remodeler survey. We call it the US Remodeler Index, and it’s a really real time up to date most current view of what’s going on in this massive industry. That doesn’t have a whole lot of data and analytics for people that want to understand that industry. We try to really understand it, pulling from a lot of different sources and summarize everything and come up with some, we try to have forward looking up, looking an understanding and an outlook for the market as well. Actually we’re just putting the finishing touches on our latest report.

Dennis Oz: Got it. Yeah. Got it. These surveys and the amount of work you put in place is amazing, and, that’s pretty interesting to see all these quarterly reports and, you’re also making some comparisons, let’s start with the demand. We are also receiving a lot of questions, because people think that we have a lot of insights about the upcoming year. So considering the demand, what differences do you see between the segments? I know you are segmenting the remodelers, like the full service, remodelers and design build firms and home improvement pros. When you consider the demand, what differences do you see between those segments?

Eric Finnigan: The differences in the segments, we’re starting to see some differences now, like earlier this year, some of the demand signals from the, what we call the home improvement pros, which are more of the more specialized contractors, the roofing companies, or the backyard patio, installers, the hardscapers, we saw a little bit of weakness there the weather and, the COVID, COVID was still a thing in the first couple of months of this year, and really the segments have become almost more identical to each other, but they really differentiator, I think now is that which remodelers are focusing on new large sort of tear out projects, these whole home gut renovations and which remodelers are focused on more maintenance projects, more repair type projects. And we’re starting to see some movement there where the whole home sort of gut renovating projects. Those were very, very, very strong for really the last year, 18 months coming out of the pandemic when mortgage rates were super low and people were taking equity out of their house. Now we’re starting to see some shifts where customers are a little bit more hesitant to sign and take on that big, new investment in the home. When they see interest rates rising, when they hear that we might be in a recession, when they might be seeing a friend or colleague lose their job and really we see the demand more shifting, especially over the next year, to more of these repair maintenance type projects.

Dennis Oz: Got it. Yeah. Also, you also mentioned recession this is gonna be my next question. Do you believe there will be a recession when you look at the industry, when you look at the data in hand, do you see sign of possible recession in the future?

Eric Finnigan: I do see a possibility of a recession that’s so one thing we do as a firm is we come up with a really strong conviction view of what’s going to be happen in the economy and the housing market, and also in the remodeling space. And the thing I would say there is if even if we are in a recession, it’s not going to play out the same, even within different segments of the housing industry or the home repair or the home investment industry. We do have a base case for recession starting next year. And we’re actually already seeing, if you look at home builders right now that they’ve pulled back on new starts and new permits by about 20% since February. We haven’t really seen that kind of decline outside of a recession at any point in the past, we’d have to find, we’d have to really dig into the numbers there to find that example. We think that there will be a recession coming up, but I want to caution, It’s not going to feel, it’s not necessarily going to feel like any of the recessions from memory. Like we just went through the COVID shutdown, which is a very strange recession, and a lot of us, when we think recession, we think back to 2008, 2009, I know that’s right. When I was getting into the industry, I remember it was like the first day on my, on the job. The Federal Reserve like announced some big liquidity emergency liquidity measure. And I had no idea what that meant, but that was a very strange recession also, giving that it was built up and housing and subprime mortgage debt and excess housing supply. We’re coming into this potential recession, very different. There’s not an over supply of housing, subprime is very small to basically 0% of the mortgage market at the moment. I would say, I personally do think we can’t avoid a recession at this point. It might not show up until next year and it might be fairly mild or moderate. I don’t actually expect, and this is like famous last words, anybody that gets recorded saying, I don’t expect a big recession, but I actually do the fundamentals. If you look within housing at least, they do seem much different from where we were in 2006, 2007, going into the great financial crisis, and that will pass through into remodeling and demand for people that do work on the house, and we do think that’s going to play out over the next year too.

Dennis Oz: Yeah. Right. What we also see, just wanted to share some experience here. Let’s say kitchen and bathroom modeling showroom or booking appointments with the homeowners. Booking an appointment is an indication of that homeowner is “buy now” mode, right? They’re buy now. They’re ready with the budget and those kind of things, they’re looking for ideas and that’s why they’re making the meeting in the showroom. But when we have people talk, start talking about recession, they will easily go to the “buy later” mode. They start postponing these plans and just, like you said, it’s not really easy to get the signature on the bottom of the contract, when we have a possible recession when people are talking about recession, do you think that is happening right now?

Eric Finnigan: I do. And we’re seeing that from our remodelers that we talk to once a quarter. One thing I like to caveat and anything I say is; I’m not a remodeler myself. I used to work in landscaping when I was in college and all that, but I’m a numbers guy. I try to extract information from what we’re seeing out there and what we’re hearing from our remodelers themselves. I can say that there is a pretty sizable chunk of that market. That’s out there right now that seeing incoming leads start to slow down. They’re starting to see customers say”You know what, I’m actually going to wait. ”Let’s continue designing maybe, but I’m not going to start work. I’m not gonna write that big check. Until I feel a little more comfortable about where pricing is going to end up or where my job is going to end up six months from now or where my income is or what the value of my house is going to be. There’s just a, all of the things that were driving extremely strong demand over the last 12 months. Some of those are starting to shift and yes, it’s showing up at that lead stage, at that conversation stage at the contract signing stage at the moment. Fortunately, for a lot of remodelers, which you can talk about if you want, but a lot of them, as you probably know, are just booked out so far ahead at this point where they’re actually going to keep working. Even if the leads shut off to zero, if they don’t sign another contract for this year, a lot of them are going to continue working through the year just with current projects or those planned, those that customers have signed on the deadline and paid for already.

Dennis Oz: That’s I think that’s a, that’s an advantage by the way, because having that order has already placed, sometimes you talk to remodeler they say we are booked for next year. So if you are talking about a recession right there, if this recession’s gonna take at least two years, it means you half there you’re half there. If considering there’s there no cancellations or nothing, the plans will be solid. So another thing that we are talking about like a recession that are like different things trigger the recession, of course, inflation is one of those things. How do we feel the inflation is: Especially when you go to a gas station, that’s the number one thing that you will see the inflation right there. How does inflation affect home remodelers in this quarter? What do you think?

Eric Finnigan: Yeah, that’s a great point about remodeling or inflation versus recession. If you think about it, in a recession maximum 10% unemployment it’s the highest we’ve gotten in the last 50 years. That’s 1 in 10 workers is unemployed. Inflation hits everyone. Hits everyone and yeah, when they fill up once a week at the gas pump, they’re seeing that number and they’re seeing, oh, it might have come down recently, it was above $5, the gas station up the street was $4.89 now its to $4 49. But a year ago it was like $3. It feels harder for the average or the most amount of people, the inflation versus unemployment. How it’s going to affect homeowners and remodeling is in a few different ways. We can talk about it from the customer that’s already in the funnel, has made the appointment, has the designers starting and they’re at the sort of the costing and product selection stage. One thing that remodelers are doing, having to do is, they’re actually seeing prices, their prices of their supplies, their products, or their materials, they’re getting information, or they’re getting notices from their dealers and their distributors once a month, once a quarter that their of materials are just going up and up and up and up, and not only that, but they’re having to pay their workers more as well because the contractor down the street is trying to post them and offering them a 30% raise just to come work for them starting next week. Remodelers are having to sort of like play that rat race and stay competitive in their labor rates. How that affects the customer is that; they’re seeing on their contracts, remodelers are doing a few things. One thing they’re doing is they’re shortening their quote window where before they say; ”Okay, here’s your quote, here’s what the job’s going to cost and this quote is valid for 30 days. That might’ve been three years ago. Now that customer is seeing that quote and you’re seeing

Dennis Oz: three days maybe

Eric Finnigan: Yeah, three days. That’s yeah, I’ve seen seven days, fourteen days. There not only that. They’re aware that their prices could go up, but that shorter window, I mean, you’re a marketing guy, you know this, that actually adds some urgency to the process and it actually encourages customers sort of feel that urgency and they want to sign on that down line quicker to get ahead of those price increases while they have the prices locked in at what they are, they want to sign. Quotes might be sitting, in limbo for a shorter period of time, that might be one way that remodeling is affected. Another way is that; if the customer doesn’t sign on the dotted line within seven days, they’re going to see their quote go up. By the time they wanto to sign, the remodeler might have to go requote his materials. Another thing is that there’s stipulations going in contracts, which have always been a thing, but more and more remodelers are adding things like escalation clauses, which puts the customer on the hook for any future price increases. It says; if my cabinets go up in price at all, your customer is going to pay the difference. Other things like material allowances, or wider ranges on fees, things like that. The customer is really seeing that if they’re paying attention to what things cost, the prices are going up, and up to now, I would say customers are willing to sort of like take that on willing to accept the price increase in order to get in line. They know that their contractor can’t start the work for six months. And I want to sign on dotted line because I don’t want to wait 12 months, I don’t want to wait 18 months. I want to get in line now. That dynamic seems to be shifting a bit where they’re feeling that less urgency. They’re not willing to start their, maybe they may have seen their price go up 30% and they’re like; ”Hold on, this is too much. I can’t take this.” 20% or 15%, that was one thing. But up to 30% or 50%, there’s starting to be some pushback on the price increases.

Dennis Oz: Got it. I don’t know guys, let me know in the comments if we are just running this episode really in a pessimistic point of view, but, we we would like to discuss little further problems that we have in the industry, because my next question is gonna be about the supply chain issues that we already talked about a little bit, and there are like cancellations and postponements, right? How do you think that the models are fighting with those supply chain issues that started with COVID, right? You said we still see the signs of COVID in the first quarter and the second quarter, maybe, but, how do they fight with those unprecedented like type of industry conditions, what do you think?

Eric Finnigan: Remodelers have had to get really good at managing their own supply chain. I know I talk, we have a sort of feelers out into a lot of different industry so one of home builder I talked to recently, this is demonstrative of what’s going on in the remodeling space too, is that he used to have a purchasing manager. Now he has a supply chain manager. Before you could just call up your dealer and say; ” Hey, I want this, I want this delivered at this address and this date.” and they would do it. Now it’s not that simple anymore. It’s much more complex. So they’re having to get really good about coordinating up to supply chain with their dealers, their distributors. And down the supply chain to their subcontractors as well. They’ve done a couple of things, I can say sort of to show up in the data. One is that since product lead times are so long and so many different categories at the moment, they’ve had to get really good about coordinating projects in a way that they didn’t before, especially these large, more complex, maybe whole home remodels where there’s, they’re doing a lot of different materials. Before they start the project, they’re ordering their materials and their supplies as early as possible. Maybe it’s even before they get the customer to sign on the dotted line or immediately, as soon as they get a deposit from the customer, they’re going out in ordering materials because it might be five months, it might be eight months before they have cabinets or faucets or windows. They’re ordering materials a lot earlier. The next thing is that while they wait for those materials, they’re not just starting a project and letting it sit half-finished while they wait for their cabinets or while they wait for their countertops, they’re actually starting, they’re waiting till they have all the materials, either in their warehouse delivered to their warehouse or delivered to the customer, and it’s at the customer’s address, before even starting the project. Because what they want to avoid is that sort of half-finished look for three or six months, which everyone hates and it’s the destroyer of reputation and customer experience. They’re very aware of that. They’re really managing things, and customers are really understanding at this point. They’ve heard all the stories on the news about supply chain and pricing. A lot of them are just like; ”Okay, cool. I understand that you’re working in inside an imperfect system. Realize you were dealing with your own delays, but don’t have my project sitting half finished. That’s all I’m asking. I’m willing to wait six months free you to start. I’m willing to pay you 25% now before seeing anything done for six months. As long as when you do start, you finish on time.”

Dennis Oz: Right. I was interviewing one of other industry pioneers, and he was saying that now kitchen designers or like any interior designers, they need stronger project management skills right now. That’s exactly what you were saying right there, because yes, I believe creating this timeline and sticking to it is the most important thing, especially when there are like a lot of different things going on there. I see some projects, if the cabinet maker cannot find any hinges for the cabinets, how is this gonna happen, how are you gonna deliver the cabinets then? Cabinet maker needs to assemble the cabinets, they need to deliver to the dealer, dealer needs to deliver to the homeowner, and you just break the chain right in the beginning. I think you’re right in the beginning, you said they’re really good at battling these challenges. Since our projects are really complex projects, there should be so many different problems, but I was going back to my designer days, kitchen designer days, sometimes I remember: That happens, you just ordered a crown molding, but the crown molding that was a dental type of crown molding and it just came like a plain one. So you need to deal with that issue, you need to reorder that, so it gave all these kitchen designs, a little bit of ability to battle with these kind of project management issues, and what we see with COVID is basically these issues altogether, but little more on advanced mode, that could be the main thing that is really giving us hard time when we are trying to deliver our projects. But yeah, you’re right on the point there. It’s important to know what we are doing with the project management and everything. When we are talking about this I know that you’re putting a lot of surveys in place and you are just giving us a clear look about how we can expect next year, and also making a comparison. Let’s say, looking at the market conditions right now. How would you compare the first and second quarter of 2022?

Eric Finnigan: I would say that, what kind of an analogy here I’m going to try and come up with this analogy on the fly here, but essentially it’s sort of like a tanker ship. Remodeling demand really took off last year and it’s really just going. And there’s a large, there’s a really massive base of projects that are ongoing right now that were, might maybe started a year ago or started six months ago, where work is just ongoing. It might be a customer started with a kitchen upgrade and now they’re moving to a basement finish or they’re creating a bedroom in the attic or creating an addition into the backyard. There’s a really strong, solid base of current activity. And that’s really, characterize, I would say that’s been true in the last quarter as true as it is this quarter. The big change that I’ve seen since the last quarter is really what’s coming out at the front end. It’s the projects that are getting added to the queue. That might be, one of the questions that we ask our remodelers is; how far out ahead are you booking projects? And about half of them are booking out on 2023 at this point. When we look at demand or what’s ahead for the remodeling space, we really need to look at that. That’s the real key indicator, the leading indicator, how are new projects getting signed or how many new projects? And like I said before, we’re really starting to see that slow down due to inflation, which has really been a thing, but it’s kind of reaching a tipping point at this point. Interest rates have gone way. Cash out refis and home equity lines and credit are less of a thing than they were a year ago. Also customers are just feeling more skittish about making huge investments in their home. Because a year ago home prices, home values were going up double digits and everything looked great. The housing market was the strongest I’ve ever seen it in terms of supply and demand. Now that’s shifting a bit. There’s a bit of a question about what someone’s home is actually worth, and that’s again, looking at that front end of demand, we’re really starting to see that shift. I don’t know that it ever like contracts or ever gets a real into a real crisis mode. But the fact that it’s starting to soften is a huge shift from where it was last quarter or the quarter before.

Dennis Oz: Got it. This is great. When you are talking about that specific remodeler who’s already booking 2023, let’s talk about some good things. I know guys, we are talking about problems here. Someone needs to address this problems, right? We cannot be 100% optimistic, sometimes we just stop and see what’s going on, what are the problems in our industry? That’s what we are addressing right here today. But yeah, I think this is time to be a little more optimistic here. Eric, let me ask you this. Yeah, let me talk about this remodeler” they already start booking projects in 2023. What are the factors that increase the demand for services for this remodelers? What do you think?

Eric Finnigan: There’s a couple of things I would look at. One is, what are home values doing in your market? This is in all sort of 300 markets we track a year ago, everything was looking great. Home values are going up 10, 20, 30% a year. And the average homeowner sees that or hears about that and is thinking; ”Oh my home is going up in value every month. I have a bunch of cash sitting on the sideline or I have a mortgage I’m gonna refinance. What do I do with this money? I’m going to put it into my house.” That’s kind of the thinking process when home values are rising and the interest rates are low. Now that’s different. Home values are starting to level off, and some markets are actually starting to flatline or even come down a little bit. And that is a huge change. That just shifts the psychology of that homeowner that’s went from; ”Oh, my home is going up in value. It’s going to keep going up in value.” Now the question is; what is actually my home worths? It might not be what I thought it was. If I have cash in the bank or I have a bonus coming in or a big commission check about to clear what could I do with that money? The investment in the home starts to look not as good. They might spend it on a vacation instead, or put it in a stock market or in a stock, or they might put in a college fund for their kid. Really what’s happening to home values, that’s the biggest driver. Especially of these large gut renovations, the whole home projects. So the fifthy to a hundred thousand dollars kitchen upgrades, it’s really what’s happening with home values. The second piece is what’s happening with income, with people’s income. And it’s not just what they’re seeing in their paycheck. Is that going up every year? But it’s that inflation question. How much is inflation eating away at that paycheck? If we start to see that inflation is, we’ve already seen it, and inflation is starting to eat away, then people are going to sort of tighten their belt a little bit more. They’re going to be a little bit less willing to make those big purchases. But the big one I’d say; is what’s happening at home values. And coupled with that too, is also what’s happening to interest rates. I’ve mentioned this a little bit earlier, but cash out refis are a huge driver of remodeling spending, especially the massive projects. If someone could refinance their home and pull out, $300.000 of equity or a $100.000 of equity. One of the key stats here is that since 2019, the average homeowner has seen their house go up in value by $71,000. That homeowner is seeing that ”My home is $71,000 worth $71,000 more. I can pull out that equity and spend it and I’m no better off or no different.” But with the interest rates higher, mortgage rates higher, and, rates on helocs much higher that cash out refinance activity has slowed basically down to zero. And helocs, they’re basically twice as expensive as they were a year ago as well. People are less willing to pull money outta their house, and they’re actually starting to see their home values start to soften. That’s where I would look.

Dennis Oz: Got it. Yes. Great, great. Thanks so much for that answer. Yes, we were talking about these, remodelers in changing market conditions. I know that you already mentioned, maybe this answered this question a couple of times, but let me ask you one more time. Market conditions are changing, I’m sure that, you are seeing some shifts that the remodelers are following a different path. Like by the operational side and also like the marketing side, or like the total management type of a, like an aspect is gonna be maybe needs to be changed. But then we look at these operations, especially when the market changes, the market has some sort of shift. That could be COVID that could be high inflation rates, or that could be high demand and could be low demand. What are their reaction first reaction when there is a recession? What do they do?

Eric Finnigan: I think it depends on what they’re at, what they’re seeing. I think the response to high inflation is going to be different from response to high demand for instance. One thing I can say is that with the supply chain disrupted and with projects sitting in a state of limbo and, remodelers having to become supply chain experts. Some of them instead of focusing on those larger projects, that’s a answer your question I think, Some remodelers are focusing on just the massive high end projects where they can charge what they want and the customer is going to sign on the dotted line no matter what, they’re going to protect their margins, they’re going to keep their business busy, keep their crews busy regardless. Some down at the more lower end of the spectrum that might not have that kind of marketing savvy or they might not have contacts in that industry or sorry, in that sort of tie into the market. Some of they’re actually shifting the other way where they’re going after the more quick turn projects where everything is standardized the materials are in stock either already, or they have a consistent predictable supply. Because that allows them to keep their cash flowing. Where if you’re a small remodeler and you have three projects or five projects currently in progress, but no materials for any of them, you’re not bringing any cash in. You’re really struggling right now. They’re shifting sort of like almost like a bifurcation or like a splitting off of the market where is one segment of the market is really focusing on the high end, one is focusing on more of the quick turn, standardized sort of the fast casual remodelers. Kind of like a Chipotle model.

Dennis Oz: Yeah. It’s really hard to answer these questions because the industry itself so many different segmentations, so many different types of remodelers. Sometimes, just men with the man and sometimes it’s just like companies, they have sales people and designers, or like operational people, especially design build companies. They have contractors like subcontractors on those kind of things. It’s really complex. I’m asking you some questions, i know kind of really hard to give it kind of a pinpoint answer. Sorry about that. But I need to ask this is my job and thank you so much for giving me all these answers.

Eric Finnigan: I appreciate it.

Dennis Oz: Wrap up. Yeah, definitely. Let’s wrap up. I think we are getting to to the end of our show for today, but let me ask this question because you are the right person who can answer this question. What are the expectations for the next year? Talking about the good things and bad things and the whole like expectations and concerns, and let’s talk about the next quarter first, and then let’s talk about 2023 then.

Eric Finnigan: I think in the next quarter, we’re going to see more of that shift, maybe a little bit more of that slow down of incoming demand. In marketing speak, that’s fewer leads coming in maybe even lower conversion rates on leads that you do bring in, maybe even smaller project sizes. So people either downsizing their project instead of doing their kitchen and bath, they might be just doing their kitchen or just their bathroom. You’re going to see also a shift to more sort of what I’m calling value engineering, which is sort of jargon speak, but it’s basically saying customers being more budget conscious. They’re setting up, they set a budget of 30.000 or 50.000, and they’re no longer willing to flex up to 60 and 75 when material pricing comes back. They’re going to say; ”I can’t go past 50.” They’re going to change their product selections based on that. Instead of having the most high end materials or the most high end designed cabinets, maybe they might be going to something a little bit lower costs, more efficient, or more sort of in the value engineering side. That’s what I would say in the next quarter. I would say looking out further than that, if we do go into recession, that trend is going to continue where customers are more budget conscious, still more and more skittish about signing those big contracts. However going out, I would say one thing remodelers do have that a lot of other businesses don’t is a long backlog of demand, which we’ve talked about. But the average remodeler we talked to last quarter has between five and six months worth of projects, either currently active or booked and partially paid for. Someone like a home builder, for instance, doesn’t have that luxury. They’re having to contract, they’re having to maybe even lay people off to basically right size their business in response to what’s happening with demand currently. Remodelers don’t have that quite really short timeline where they have to downsize. There’s a few things that I would say are really positive about the remodeling space long term and I would really encourage remodelers to think as long term as you possibly can. Given the short term constraints, given the short term stresses and fire drills in your business now, like still really think about the long term. There’s a few things I want to point to; one is that people are spending more time at home. It’s completely different from what it was in 2019. I mean, I’m an example of this. I used to work in an office. I work at home now a hundred percent and that means the people that are spending more time at home are willing to spend more on the home. There’s sort of a permanently, I would say stronger demand for home upgrades that was not there pre-COVID. And that’s going to be really good for remodelers, even during a recession. Another thing is that the housing market, even if it does slow down, it’s not going to be a replay of 2007, 2008, where home prices fell 20, 30% where home building basically slowed down to zero where people lost equity in their houses or had to foreclose because they just couldn’t pay their mortgages. The average homeowner is very strong, in a very strong financial position. That tells me when we do come out of this sort of short term blip or short time slow down in demand, It’s going to come back. I would say for that remodelerthat’s thinking about ”Oh, how do I keep my workers? Do I lay someone off?” This is the last thing I would hope. I hope it’s the last thing they do. If they’re seeing a slow down in projects. Because it’s so hard to find that skilled labor and that’s going to be true. That’s been true for the last 20 years. It’s going to continue out over the next 10, 20.

Dennis Oz: Right. Skilled labor could be another episode, right? Yeah. For our industry, that could be another episode, but Eric just wanted to say thank you for today’s insights and everything. Just wanna ask you. Let’s say most of our listeners will be interested in learning more about the industry insights. And guys, if you’re learning about the industry, it’s gonna bring you stronger management and your leadership will be stronger, and you will just bring that stronger management to your company, if you just learn about what’s going on about the industry. Expectations and the future concerns, you need to know about this. So if they really wanna learn more about those kind of things, just to learn a little more, how do they do it?

Eric Finnigan: I’m so glad you asked. So I set up a website where anyone listening to this can visit and actually download our latest remodeler survey to get the, really the sort of zoomed out view of what’s going on in the space. What are other remodelers doing in terms of adaptations? How are they seeing demand? What are they doing in terms of pricing? And I want to invite your listeners to come download that. And the URL would, hopefully this is really easy to remember. It’s the word tinyurl.com/remodeler-survey and maybe you can put it in the show notes or email out to your list,

Dennis Oz: Yeah, definitely make sure that it’s gonna be right there, is that a downloadable kind of a document that we can download on our computers and see it?

Eric Finnigan: We’re just going to ask a name and an email address just to track our statistics and how many people download it. But yeah, so you go to that, you type in your name, type in an email and it brings you immediately to a download link.

Dennis Oz: Great. Thanks so much, Eric. Guys, that was another episode of Remodeler Success Podcast. Thanks so much. We’re gonna see you next time. Goodbye!