Dennis Oz:
Hello everyone, welcome back to the Remodeler Success podcast, where we spotlight the stories, strategies, and systems behind fast-growing remodeling businesses, design businesses, and construction businesses. You are in the right place.

Today’s guest brings a really rare mix of sales expertise, design talent, and digital savvy to our space, to our industry. In just two years, she grew her business by over 250%. I’m not kidding. You’ll see the numbers. We are going to talk about that too — planning all these kitchen renovations, home flipping, and even retail into one seamless experience.

You will see her approach is really fresh, modern, and highly strategic, and she’s making waves in the Ohio market and beyond. So that’s why you will see why I’m shaking here, just getting those vibes, just because you will meet her. And without further ado, I don’t want to steal her thunder.

I have Susan Brock here. Susan, welcome to the show!

Susan Brock:
I am so excited to be here, Dennis. Thanks so much for having me.

Dennis Oz:
Great! Thanks so much for coming. Susan, I’m so excited to start a conversation with you because there are so many different things that we can talk about today, but I would like to start with your business and foundation. I know that you have Gray Clover Home. You’re doing amazing things over there. And I just want to ask you, I know this company is really making waves. But what did it look like in the first year when it got started?

Susan Brock:
So, it’s funny, I’m going to go back a few years because, you know, no business ever seems like it gets started just right away and then takes off, right?

So, years ago, I started out with my very first sales job. I sold furniture, rugs, artwork, accessories. I have a background in interior design, and that was fantastic. I absolutely loved it. I noticed that the stores in the area were missing out on some of the really cool products. Like, they totally missed it. So, I started with a girlfriend of mine, and we had an event at my house where I brought in a bunch of stuff. Then we did an event at her house, and we kind of parlayed that into opening a store.

We had this store open for many years, even before I met my husband. Well, I knew him from high school, but we weren’t together at the time. The store was absolutely fantastic, we were rocking and rolling, and then they put a deli right next to us and took all the parking. Which sounds crazy, but they did. They took all the parking, so we closed down the store. We sold everything except for this chair — I think it was one of the only things left.

I brought it home because I love it. My friend got a table, and this chair always makes me think of the store every time I sit in it, which is pretty much every day. So, we closed down the store, and I took that design work and just did it myself from home for many years.

When my husband and I got together, I continued to do it. I had this jewelry line because I’m an entrepreneur at heart. I also had a full-time job in addition to it, so it was kind of like putting all the pieces together and trying to do it in the nooks and crannies of the time that I had.

When we got married, I know people laugh at me, and even my husband laughs at me, but when we got married, I brought several business ideas on our honeymoon. I said, “Listen, everybody should have a business. I think everyone should have a business. Everyone should have some sort of an LLC. It’s just a great opportunity to do so many different things.”

So I was like, “Here are three different things that we could do. You can pick, but I think any one of these would be good.” One of them was home renovations and continuing on with the design I loved and had done for so many years. And that’s what he picked. So, it was fantastic.

But that first year was quite a learning curve because although I had done design work and furniture sales, I hadn’t done as much of the construction other than my own. I love to paint and rip out walls and things like that, but it was crazy, and we dove right in by flipping two homes.

In the past six years, we’ve flipped, renovated, sold, or cabbed eight homes now, in addition to working with clients. So, it’s really been crazy — chaotic, creative, and so much fun. Some couples golf, we do demo. I run the design side of things and the business side of things. But then when we have a personal project like a home flip or a demo to turn into an Airbnb, we come together because my husband knows how to do all the different things, and I let him work with the contractors for that.

Dennis Oz:
So, that’s where the teamwork comes in, right? That’s where the teamwork really shows.

Susan Brock:
You know, it’s so funny because a lot of couples are scared of doing construction together. I have a lot of friends who say, “Oh my gosh, I would kill my husband!” But it’s so fun for us because we just get to partner together. We each have our special specialties, and we just go. It’s a lot of fun.

Dennis Oz:
Amazing. That’s an amazing story too. Well, just like I mentioned in the introduction, I want to dive a little more into that exponential growth that you’ve had between 2021 and 2023. What were the key strategies that helped you drive that kind of growth?

Susan Brock:
Yeah, you know, I think the biggest part of that growth came from intentionally focusing on new client acquisition. So, we were working with a lead generator service, and we really wanted to attract those who wanted full-service support.

We did a lot of things, like when we did our house flip, I put together what I called a “flip and shop.” It sounds funny when I say it out loud, “flip and shop,” not a flip and shop. But, I kind of coined that term, and we had friends bring their friends in so they could not only see the house that we had renovated, but they could also purchase the furniture that we had in there.

So, I got a lot of clients from that because they could come in, see what we did in terms of design work, and then buy all the furniture. We landed several major clients from that, not necessarily renovation projects, but clients who were really excited.

For example, we had a client who moved into this house with mattresses and pots and pans — that’s it. They got rid of everything in their house and moved into this 9,000 square foot home with nothing. I was able to help them with all the furniture, built-ins in the bedrooms, everything — all the way down to their basement. It was the most fun project, and it was definitely a lot of luck and timing.

They say luck is where opportunity and preparation meet, so that’s where we were. The job at the time really allowed me to be flexible, meet clients after work, and still have the mental space to do it. We were building great momentum and had a lot of great word-of-mouth because I always want to over-deliver for my clients.

Now, we’re in another growth phase, which is fantastic.

Dennis Oz:
Exactly. We’ll also talk about that too, but I’m sure a big part of it, Susan, is probably the systems and the processes you put in place. I would love to talk about that a little bit. What are those systems and processes, and how do they compare between now and when you first started? How did it look in the beginning, and how does it look now?

Susan Brock:
It’s pretty similar, actually. I’m a little bit of a… I love digital and tech, but I operate really well with good old-fashioned plastic folders. I know it sounds crazy, but I will tell you, it’s the best thing because I can have my folders out. Right now, I have my leads on the left and the clients who have already signed off on my right. I know that I just need to check into these, and then they go back in the box after I’ve done my check-in. Today’s a check-in day, so it really helps me stay organized.

It sounds a little old school, but the physical folders help me keep track of things. I can put their paint color samples in there, keep all the notes, and I know what they’ve signed off on. So, it’s just really effective for staying organized when I have multiple projects.

For billing and payments, I use Square. It’s really helpful for me. It keeps things simple, and I can put together proposal bids for clients. They can automatically accept them. Most of the time, my clients pay me by check, and I can input that information, put some notes in there for them, and it allows us to stay in touch.

I also pick up the phone and talk to my construction vendors on a regular basis. There’s nothing like staying in touch, right? It keeps the lines of communication open. We don’t miss out on the details.

Susan Brock:
So it’s pretty similar, actually. I kind of have, um, I’m a little bit of a… I love digital and tech, but I operate really well with good old-fashioned plastic folders. I know it sounds crazy, but I will tell you it is the best thing because I can have my folders out. Right now, I’ve got my leads on my left and my clients who have already signed off on my right. I know that I just need to check into these, and then they go back in the box after I’ve done my check-in. Today’s a check-in day, so it really helps me stay organized.

It sounds a little old school, but the physical folders help me keep track of things. I can put their paint color samples in there, keep all the notes, and I know what they’ve signed off to do. So it just really allows me to keep everything in one place. It’s really effective for staying organized when I have multiple projects, which I have quite a few right now.

For billing and payments, I use Square. It’s really helpful for me. It keeps things simple. I can put together proposal bids for clients, and they can automatically accept them. Most of the time, my clients will pay me by check, and I can just put that information in there, along with some notes for them, and it allows us to stay in touch. They can always keep track and see where we are with the project. So that’s great.

I also pick up the phone and talk to my construction vendors on a regular basis. There is nothing like staying in touch, right? It keeps the lines of communication open. We don’t miss out on the details. So, my contractor that I work with — when my husband and I work on our own projects, we hire a contractor when working with clients. We have a contractor we partner with, but we don’t miss the details. If we just keep those open lines of communication, we won’t miss anything.

Since I was balancing everything with a full-time job early on, I had to be really intentional with my time, which I really try to be. So I start by breaking each big project down into bite-size tasks, and I block them directly on my calendar. Because I feel like if I can calendarize it, I know exactly what I’m going to do. So when I come in for the day, I know that this block of time is when I need to create the 3D design for so-and-so. But it’s all really calendarized out.

It takes a little bit of time to do it, but when you put it in there, then you don’t have to think, “Am I going to miss a detail?” So, I really do that. My favorite tool is what I call my “tadas.” It’s like a to-do list, but I like to feel like they’re already done, so I call them “todas.”

It’s my focus on the next step. So I have a Sunday calendar event that just kind of goes through what I need to be doing. It’s kind of like my mental thought list of what I need to be doing. So before it’s calendarized out on the calendar, it’s in that Sunday overall list, and then it gets highlighted and put onto the calendar when I’m ready for it. But it allows me to keep track.

And then, recently I just started using ChatGPT for this. So I’ve got my notes where I can say, “Hey, if I’m driving, I can open up my to-do list folder on ChatGPT.” I can just hit the speaker button and tell it, “Hey, add this to my to-do list.” So I’ve got that all in there.

Dennis Oz:
We’ll talk more about AI; I have a couple of questions about marketing. We’ll go there. But first, I still would like to talk about the leadership and responsibilities in the company. A big part of our show here is that we ask our guest speakers to share their lessons learned, and I’m sure you have learned a lot.

You’ve had previous leadership roles and now you’re running your company. What are those lessons? What is the most important lesson that you can share with our community right now?

Susan Brock:
Yeah, so I’ve got three actually for you. So, the first one is truly listen to your clients, like, I need to listen to them, right? Even when they say they don’t know what they want, they almost always have some sort of a vision tucked away. Whether it’s something they saw on Pinterest, TikTok, or Facebook, there’s a reason they reached out and called you to renovate their bathroom, redo their kitchen, or find some new furniture for their living room, right?

There’s something in it that they kind of have an idea of, and if you listen closely, they’ll give you clues. They’ll give you the clues for what it is that they want, whether it’s like a paint color, a style, or something that gives you an idea of where to start for them. And then, from there, I like taking that spark and elevating it.

For example, they might tell me they want a western theme. Well, I know they don’t want like Roy Rogers running through their living room, right? So I’m going to take it, I’m going to elevate it to give them the design and take what I know to give them that creative spin they didn’t know about.

But, for example, I had a client one time who wanted purple cabinets. So I gave her purple cabinets, but they were a softer, more muted purple. We combined it with beautiful countertops, and she was thrilled. It actually looked really cool. It actually looked surprisingly cool.

Dennis Oz:
Purple cabinets? I’ve never seen that. I gotta tell you that.

Susan Brock:
I know, it’s crazy, right? So, I mean, you just never know. And she was thrilled with the results, so it was very cool.

Okay, so the next one is to lead with kindness and patience. Kindness and patience. So really listen to them, lead with kindness and patience. Home projects can feel overwhelming for your client, and they’re very vulnerable at this moment, right? Their house is a mess. Emotions are high. That’s the time when they’re going to get into a disagreement with their spouse. They’re going to feel like everything’s chaotic, right?

So we need to be patient and kind with them during this time. They’re hiring me because they don’t know how to do it themselves, right? And so sometimes that can come with a lot of frustration. So my job is to guide them confidently through the process, make them feel taken care of, hold their hand. And if they do have the time — and we’ve all had it, the client who yells, or is frustrated or angry with something going on — our job is to make them feel calm and confident in that moment, knowing that it will be taken care of.

Kindness and patience go a long way. And just always keep in mind, they’re not yelling at you specifically. They’re not insulting you. Just know that it’s the situation they’re upset with and your job is to figure out how you can make it better for them.

And then the third one is to overdeliver. Do what you say you’re going to do, and then take it to the next level. Make sure they’re super happy with everything. In this industry, word of mouth is everything, and trust is your greatest asset. So those would be my things. Thanks so much. Yeah, be kind and patient and then listen.

Dennis Oz:
Yeah, we asked for one and we got three. That’s amazing. Sorry, I’m sure everyone is…

Susan Brock:
No, no, no. Definitely not. Thank you so much.

Dennis Oz:
Well, I’m sure that our listeners and also whoever’s watching this on their computers, laptops, or cell phones, are getting great value out of this conversation. Thanks so much for sharing this.

I would like to go to the client journey and also sales strategy. Susan, we know you have a sales background, and I’m sure you’ve already engineered your client journey from the first contact to project completion. How does it look like?

Susan Brock:
Okay, so the first thing — and actually I just implemented this just recently — is it starts with an initial phone call.

That’s where I get a feel for what it is that they’re looking for, to make sure we’re a good fit. And actually, that’s what I tell them. I tell them, “We want to hop on a call really quickly just to get to know each other, to make sure that I’m a good fit for you and that you’re a good fit for me, right?”

So that we can work together well, I love because, really, honestly, it’s not just about getting clients; it’s about getting somebody that you want to work with. Because if you don’t want to work with a person, I don’t think it’s going to be a good fit. That’s going to be your problem client. You’re never going to be happy with that client if it’s somebody that you just get that feeling isn’t going to be the right fit.

So that first initial phone call is as much for you as it is for them, to feel confident with you. And that’s, again, where we put our listening ears on, where I’m listening to what it is that they’re saying and relaying it back to them, making sure that I understand exactly what they’re looking for.

And then, before we take the next step, this really helps set the tone. Previously, I would jump right into the in-person interview, but adding this initial phone call beforehand has been a game-changer for me. Plus, I’m not running all over the place, you know, just for somebody who wanted a little bit of free advice.

So, the initial phone call, and then next, we’ll schedule an in-person consultation so that we can really connect and get to know each other. We could walk through the space, talk about their vision, figure out what it is that they’re looking for.

And then sometimes, the decision to work with me happens right there. So, especially with design clients, generally by the time I’m done kind of going out there and meeting with them and talking through things, I’ll give them little ideas and tips while we’re there, right?

But then usually, they’ll decide right there that they want to move forward. If it’s a larger project, we need to go onto the next phase, which is putting together the design. I’ll have a 3D design if we’re doing a remodel, but that comes with a fee. So, you know, a lot of times, there’s some sort of decision being made at this initial meeting.

And again, sometimes it takes a little bit of extra follow-up, but generally we’re off and running. And then one thing that has made a huge difference for me is having some standardized pricing. So it removes that awkwardness around money and gives clarity upfront.

It also helps to weed out those people who just want free design advice and aren’t ready to invest. It also helps with, you know, just like friends or anybody, because then you have your set pricing, and you know what you’re going to charge for your services.

And then from there, communication will really depend on the scope. For a smaller package, it might just be they told me what they want, and I deliver the package to them. So I give them the link for the products, you know, that they want. Or, we might do weekly or even daily check-ins depending on the size and scope of the project.

So, we’re usually in touch quite a bit, especially when we’re right in the thick of it, in the middle of the details. Staying connected is really going to help your client feel confident every step of the way. Because it’s the worst when somebody goes to you, right? And you’re like, “Are they even doing anything?” They took my money and now I haven’t heard from them.

So we want to make sure we’re staying in touch with our clients so that they feel confident that we’re going to do the job right.

Dennis Oz:
Well, thanks so much for dropping this knowledge here because this is one of the most frequently asked questions—especially about knowing when to say no.

We’re always talking about the importance of saying no, because you’ll actually get to the right yeses faster if you say no to the wrong projects. Your power comes from your knowledge and your expertise—just like Susan described. Don’t let others drain your energy and time with projects that aren’t the right fit for your skills or vision.

As you said, Susan, sometimes people are just looking for free advice. But everything comes with a price, and your expertise is priceless.

Folks, remember this—your expertise is priceless. Susan has built businesses, an incredible client base, and a strong reputation around that expertise. And this kind of insight doesn’t come for free.

Know your value. Like Susan explained, follow that process, and I’m sure you’ll have more time and energy for the right projects—ones that are truly a better fit.

So thank you again, Susan, for that great advice.

Alright, let’s talk a little about marketing. Right now, we have AI, and we’ve got all these different platforms like Houzz, HomeAdvisor, and Angie. What’s your approach to modern marketing these days?

Susan Brock:
So lately, we’ve actually been seeing some great success with Thumbtack. I know it might sound surprising since I do design and kitchen remodeling, but I’ve used HomeAdvisor in the past, and the quality of leads just hasn’t been the same since they moved away from the original Angie’s List model.

I’ve found that Thumbtack offers great pricing because, as with any lead system, those leads are going to multiple providers. But I still think lead generation systems are a great investment—especially when you’re just getting started or rebooting your business before building up a consistent referral base.

Right now, I have a lot of recurring and referral clients, but those lead services were fantastic in the early phases. We recently expanded our service area on Thumbtack and picked up seven new clients in just the past couple of weeks, which has been absolutely fantastic. It’s been a real game-changer, and I love that.

Another tool I use is Houzz Pro. It’s not strictly marketing-focused, but they offer a ton of helpful tools. I don’t use all of them—I like to keep things simple—but if you have a team, Houzz Pro has an incredible feature where you can assign leads to a project manager, and then that person can take it from there and even connect directly with the client.

I’ve set mine up a little differently, but overall, Houzz Pro is a great resource. I believe it’s around $97 a month. One of my favorite tools that comes with it is a LIDAR scanner. I use it on every project—even if I don’t end up providing a 3D design—because scanning the space makes me look incredibly professional.

It’s amazing how it works. It’s not 100 percent precise, but it gives a really solid layout and room dimensions, which allows me to build out a 3D design. This is so valuable because most clients really can’t visualize what you’re describing.

For instance, I recently worked with a client on a large main bathroom renovation. She just couldn’t picture the changes I was proposing. But once I sent over the 3D renderings, she said, “Yes! Let’s do it.” Same thing with her husband. He couldn’t imagine it either—until he saw the visual. Then it was, “Oh my gosh, it’s beautiful.”

People need to see it, and that tool helps bridge the gap. It’s not necessarily outward marketing—but it’s incredibly effective for internal client communication and trust-building.

Dennis Oz:
I was going to ask you about social media too, because I’ve seen the great work you’re doing there. Let’s talk about that next.

Susan Brock:
Yes! So I do a few different things. I’ll go live and talk about what we’re working on. I’ll post photos and updates from our current projects.

I’m not always as consistent as I’d like to be, but when I do post, I use tools like ChatGPT to help rewrite or enhance my posts. I’ll type something up, and then say, “Hey, make this more engaging” or “Make this shorter.”

And if you’re not using ChatGPT, it is seriously your best assistant. It’s like having the smartest marketing partner in your back pocket.

Dennis Oz:
Say that one more time. It’s your number one assistant, right?

Susan Brock:
It absolutely is. ChatGPT is your number one assistant. And another really great tool I use is Claude AI.

So, for example, you can go into ChatGPT and say, “Put together a social media calendar for me. Here’s my business. Here’s what I do. Here’s what I’m comfortable doing—going live, writing posts, posting images.”

Treat it like an assistant. Be specific. I’ll even ask it to format the calendar in an Excel spreadsheet—first column for date, second for topic, third for a suggested caption, fourth for image or video idea.

It will literally generate a full month of social content tailored to your business. You can even tell it what your goal is—whether you want to grow followers, nurture your audience, or sell products.

It gives you an incredible head start.

Another tool I’ve incorporated is ManyChat, which is an autoresponder. It’s super helpful—especially with the current Instagram algorithm, which favors engagement.

With ManyChat, you can make a post that says, “Comment ‘kitchen’ to get my free kitchen remodeling guide.” And once someone comments, the algorithm boosts your post and shows it to more people.

Then ManyChat automatically sends a custom response, continuing the conversation instantly—without me having to be glued to my phone.

Dennis Oz:
This is amazing. And folks, I want to say—Susan is being very humble here. If you really pay attention to what she’s doing on social media, and try to reverse-engineer her strategy, you will see how smart and well-structured it is.

Please don’t just copy the tactics. Understand what she’s trying to achieve. The clarity, the organization, the consistency—it’s all there.

As someone who’s been marketing in this industry for years, I can say Susan’s system is a great example to follow.

Thank you so much, Susan. You’re sharing real, actionable knowledge with your peers in the industry, and it’s hugely appreciated.

Before we wrap up, I want to ask you one more thing. You’ve got a lot of experience in sales and you’ve built some really effective teams. What advice would you give to someone who’s just starting to build their own team?

What are your golden nuggets for finding and keeping A-players?

Susan Brock:
So, about team building—specifically building an operations team and hiring.

Dennis Oz:
Yes, hiring and creating your team. That’s what I’m talking about.

Susan Brock:
Yeah. I would say, just get out there and explore platforms like Thumbtack to get to know people. Don’t submit a lead—because then they’ll get charged for it—but you can go in, check out their profiles, read the reviews, see what they’re like, and then reach out to them. Start a conversation and build a relationship.

That’s how we’ve met a lot of the smaller contractors we work with, like plumbers, electricians, and others.

You’ll also meet people through the industry naturally, as you’re working on projects. And clients are a great source too—I’ve done this many times. A client will say, “Oh my gosh, I have a painter I love,” and I’ll ask, “Who is it?” Then I get a recommendation directly from someone I trust.

They’re in my client base, they’ve had a great experience, and that’s a powerful referral. I’ll reach out, get to know that contractor, save their number, and whenever I have a client who needs painting—because we don’t paint—I pass the job along to one of my trusted painters.

I always tell the client, “Let them know we referred you.” That way, the contractor knows I’m thinking of them, and often they’ll return the favor by recommending me too.

For example, my contractor doesn’t do countertops and only works with lower-end cabinetry. So if he has a client who needs a kitchen that’s outside of his scope, he comes to me. All of his countertop work comes through me as well.

It’s amazing. I don’t have to do anything except schedule the install, and it’s a win-win. I absolutely love it.

Dennis Oz:
Just like Susan said, we can all take away a valuable reminder: your network is your net worth. We’ve said that phrase many times on this show, and it’s still true.

If you find a great plumber or painter—and you’re not in plumbing or painting—those cross-industry connections are gold. They help you expand your reach and open more doors. And they’ll remember you too, passing your name on when opportunities come up.

That’s such a smart strategy. Thank you so much, Susan. This has been an amazing conversation. I’ve really enjoyed it, and I’m sure our listeners have as well.

Before we wrap up, Susan, just one last question. If someone has a follow-up question or wants to get in touch, what’s the best way to reach you—without sharing your personal phone number, since this will go out to thousands of people?

Susan Brock:
Yes, absolutely. They can contact us at hello@graycloverhome.com. That’s gray with an “A” — graycloverhome.com.

I’m always happy to help. I truly love mentoring people. I’ve helped tons of women and men start businesses—not necessarily in home construction, but in general. That was actually a big part of my previous job—coaching, training, and mentoring people.

And I believe mindset is huge in this industry. You’ll face a lot of rejection, so you have to know how to handle it.

Can I give one quick piece of advice?

Dennis Oz:
Of course. Go ahead.

Susan Brock:
Thank you. So, when my girlfriend and I started our store, I had been in sales, but she hadn’t. She was more of a bookkeeper but also very talented in design.

Whenever someone would say “no,” she took it very personally. She would be so hurt. But I told her: You can’t take it personally. There are a million, trillion, billion reasons why someone might say no.

99.999% of the time, it’s not about you. Now, if you weren’t listening or weren’t being kind, then maybe it is. But usually, it has nothing to do with you.

Maybe the design didn’t quite resonate. Maybe the price was more than they expected. Maybe they thought they were ready to move forward, but then realized they weren’t.

There are countless reasons why someone may not move forward with a project or choose you—but you can’t take it personally.

You have to move on and understand that job simply wasn’t meant to be.

Dennis Oz:
Thank you so much for all the information you shared today, Susan. On behalf of myself and our amazing community listening and watching—thank you.

And to our listeners—yes, this was another episode of the Remodeler Success Podcast. We’ll continue to bring you insightful guests from the industry.

Susan, thank you again for being here. We’ll see you all next time. Have a great day.

Susan Brock:
Thank you. Bye.