Dennis Oz: Welcome back to the Remodeler Success Podcast, where we dig into the real systems behind profitable design and build and construction companies and kitchen and bathroom remodelers. Today we are in Chicago area, and the clients are really savvy, tastes shift really fast, and tech really keeps reshaping how ideas become spaces in that area.

So today my guest. As a follower of Remodeler Success Podcast, we know that we are bringing you pioneer people. And today’s guest, a lead of an interior design firm founded back in two thousands and with twenty to thirty years in the residential work area, we are bringing you all this knowledge and also all this experience.

She is known for her really emotional driven and highly personal interiors and with also a lot of featuring in Chicago Tribune Magazine, even Kitchen and Bath Design News, and even HGTV, and also she is a speaker at our industry events like design and build conferences nationwide.

That is why that makes this session super important for us. Please welcome to the show, Rebecca Pogonitz. Rebecca, welcome.

Rebecca Pogonitz: Thank you so much, and thank you for that nice intro. It is such an honor to be here. Thank you, Dennis.

Dennis Oz: Of course. Rebecca, I know that you, I was looking at your background last week.

I was just seeing the amazing things that you do for the industry, but for those who do not really know you, how did you introduce yourself?

Rebecca Pogonitz: You all know my name, Rebecca Pogonitz of Gogo Design Group, and I always introduce myself as I am a soul nourishing interior designer whose mission is to create homes that foster emotional, physical, and spiritual wellbeing. That really is my mission. And throughout the years I have been on quite a journey developing this mission, and it just keeps on going higher and higher and higher. So it is a really exciting time to be an interior designer.

Dennis Oz: Yeah. Thanks so much for joining us.

Let me start with my first question. You are running your business for decades now, and I am sure that you have seen trends and client expectations also change, even technology world, right? Mm hmm. What really helped you to stay adaptable and keep your company Gogo Design Group growing through all these changes?

Rebecca Pogonitz: Mm hmm. Well, it is interesting that you say that because when I graduated in design school in 1998, I had two CAD courses. So my first job I was hand drawing, and then people were doing CADs, especially more architectural firms and some design firms. But the designer I worked with, it was all hand drawing.

And so the way my life pivoted, I was raising babies and everything. I never got proficient on CAD and was drawing by hand. And so yes, I had to adapt. So as I grew my business, I had to get savvy. So I hired someone to do my drawings, and stopped beating myself up for not knowing how. And I just adapt that way, with turning to people that are doing what they love and have the skills to what they are doing, and that you are as strong as your weakest link. So I would say that is how I have adapted.

Dennis Oz: Yeah. That is right. And the weakest link is something that we have to look at even more closely when we are looking at our systems and processes. That is perfectly right, and thank you so much for sharing this.

Rebecca, let me ask you this. Your business is, when you look at your portfolio and everything, you have that emotional touch in your portfolio and it is deeply personal.

Rebecca Pogonitz: Thank you. Thank you.

Dennis Oz: And yeah, of course. Most of the designers and some of the business owners among us, maybe they have a team of designers, they cannot really go that much of success when they are trying to do this.

So my question to you is, how do you really balance this creative expression with also the systems and structure needed to run a successful firm? How do you balance those two things?

Rebecca Pogonitz: Well, you know, knowledge is power. So the way I have balanced it throughout the years is as I have learned about myself as a designer and having the confidence in myself, I have had to do a lot of learning. I have had business coaches, I have been to seminars and had gotten additional education. So systems and process is also when you are a growing business or interior design business. That is always evolving, right, with the technology and everything. And as you learn more and more about how to effectively run a business, that is always going to be evolving.

And sometimes you have to make some changes. For instance, before COVID, I was on a software management program called Studio Designer and COVID hit.

Panicked, got rid of my subscription, joined another designer, and when I came back I had to figure out, okay, now what do I do, right? So I took my time though, and that actually is another key to adapting, is take your time and really figure out where you are in your business and how you can accommodate it with the budget and everything. And it took me four years and I landed on another software management program.

And it is just constantly adapting, and I am always trying and integrating other systems, and I am coming up with a project management system that that software program does not offer me. So it is always about just learning, talking to other industry professionals and hearing what works for them and applying that and trial and error. But above all, be patient with yourself and have grace for yourself, because as an entrepreneur, every day is a learning process. And honestly, you cannot grow as an entrepreneur if you are not learning every day.

So to answer your question, balancing is really, I think, learning. I balance it with learning more about how it would fit my business model because with the economy and everything and trying to strategize cash flow and filling the pipeline, some things are not going to work or you simply cannot afford those things, or it is a balancing act.

Just what you know, so yeah. I say learning and knowledge is power. That is where the balance comes in.

Rebecca Pogonitz: Well, when you are scaling a business and the most economical way to do it, to hire a subcontractor. They are called in our language, ten ninety nine ERs, you know, and so building my team is from a different angle because they are all working independently for other people too, and I am one of their clients.

So in terms of managing the team, it is sharing them, empowering them with what I am learning about my business and giving them really, because they are also entrepreneurs in a way, giving them the autonomy to step up to the plate and me having the patience for them to honor their scheduling. And so it has been a little bit of an unusual process in terms of scaling my business in terms of I do not have a group of employees in an HR department, but I lead whenever I can just by sharing what I am learning about and as I am getting empowered. And I do also want to work with others who have the same mindset as me. That is what I look for. So yeah. I do not know if that answered your question, Dennis, but yeah, of course.

Dennis Oz: Yeah. It is, yeah.

Rebecca Pogonitz: If that makes sense. But it really, over the years, it has just been selecting the right subcontractors who are aligned with my values and are willing to grow and learn themselves.

Dennis Oz: Sometimes it is hard. That is why

Rebecca Pogonitz: I want on my team someone who has that spirit.

Dennis Oz: Yeah. Can we say you have to be really careful when you are just picking your subcontractors for a project. Is that a struggle or is that something really easy for you? What do you think about that process?

Um,

Rebecca Pogonitz: I am sorry, could you repeat that?

Dennis Oz: Yeah. Subcontractors, I am talking about the subcontracting, like you are subcontracting the works that need to be done. I just wanted to learn a little more about that process. Is it something that you do sure with the networking or is it something easy for you because you have a lot of people

Rebecca Pogonitz: that

Dennis Oz: you know, how do you handle the game?

Rebecca Pogonitz: Yes. You mentioned the magic word networking, and that also goes back to the other magic word, adapting and relationship building and that and the balancing. Without networking and relationship building and relying on others and surrounding yourself with people who are smarter than you, who want to mentor and support and believe in you along the way.

That is how I do it. Right? So it is through recommendations. So for instance, a woman who has been working with me as a subcontractor now for seven years, we are growing up together initially, and I found her through someone, a contact that I networked with. She was a recruiter and she had contacted her.

And we also just ask each other, designers ask other designers, do you know of anyone who needs a job? I have worked with designers. We have shared a part time basis subcontractor. So it is all about the relationship building.

Dennis Oz:Wow.

Rebecca Pogonitz: Yeah. That is really what built my business. I have to tell you, I attribute that all to my business growth. It is so

Dennis Oz: important. Wow. And I believe you mentioned a very important thing for our listeners today. Just like you said, you have to surround yourself with people smarter than you. Mm hmm. Rebecca, I believe this is something that we have to comment a little bit. For all our listeners who are tuning in today because, well, folks, you can find these people in networking events, so try to be active in your chapters when you just join.

It could be NKBA, it could be anything like NHAB, like your group, because try to get people together and the networking part, just like Rebecca mentioned, is very important. And you will find people who already made the same mistakes and you do not need to walk just like they did in the past.

So this is, that is why thank you so much. That was really important, I believe. I just wanted to open a little bit parenthesis before my next question to be able to sure give our listeners a little more context about it. So much. Thank you. Let us talk about the estimating and proposals and those kinds of things that we do. Well, there are two things. When you are talking to a prospect at the end of the deal, they have to be happy. We have to be happy. We have to be happy by the profits and they have to be happy with the results after the project is done.

Mm hmm. And the balance that you are talking about, it has to be right there as well. So and we know that a lot of our people in our professionals in our industry, they struggle with those estimating and pricing or managing client expectations. So my question is to you.

What systems or mindset or habits have helped you keep projects profitable and also at the same time clients happy?

Rebecca Pogonitz: Well, I would say the most important thing is how you value yourself and how you feel about yourself and your self esteem and because that is going to come across and knowing your worth.

And that is actually the biggest lesson I have learned throughout the years as my rates have gone up and the kinds of projects I take up go up in value. But in terms of how you start, you know, starting out, I had no idea what I was doing. I charged a straight hourly rate. I did not even have a contract.

And then as I started to learn and grow, I realized, okay, depending on the size of the project, let us try this out. Let us try a flat fee. And of course I was completely giving away so much time and undercharging for that, but I did not know better. Right? And then it is just going back and forth and then, okay, I have to pay the bills.

So I will just take this one off consult, and so it is moving parts and I can say for me it is just, it is like this, it is just what is going to work for me.

Dennis Oz: Rollercoaster ride, right? It is,

Rebecca Pogonitz: and then as I am personally developing, I am professionally developing. So right now I can tell you where I am at and it is on my website.

I offer packages of hours. It is a minimum of ten hours at my hourly rate, and the client is able to do whatever they want to do with those hours. If they want to go shopping and ask my opinion, if they need a room layout. And this way it is a way to instill trust in case they want to move to a larger project or they are thinking of renovating their house, but they want to feel trustworthy. And that is the most important thing, and you kind of touched on that before, is the most important thing is that we trust each other. But the client trusts me. So otherwise they will not want to work with me.

And that is why, and you kept on mentioning the personal, and so I am a very authentic person. I am transparent. I am transparent about my pricing. I am transparent about my markup. And even though it is in my contract, I say it upfront at the first meeting and I always, another thing I always say is if you have any kind of concerns or discomfort and do not feel you are getting the value you are getting from this process, I need you to speak up.

I have got a thick skin and the way we are going to have the best experience is if we talk it out, and I have these kind of direct conversations with my clients. So I empower them in knowing that they can, that I am a safety island for them. We will figure out how we are going to pay for the job. I say this in the first, the first, as long as it is a ten hour minimum, because that is my business model.

So we figure it out together. I adapt, and that is how I have grown my business.

Dennis Oz: Wow. If a

Rebecca Pogonitz: client is not comfortable paying me a lump sum fee. Let us say ten thousand dollars to renovate their primary suite, kitchen, and powder room. Then I said, okay, and I am an intuitive. So I say, okay, why do we not start with a package of hours?

Dennis Oz: Yeah.

Rebecca Pogonitz:And inevitably that immediately creates comfort because they are not committed to this huge fee. We can build the relationship together.

Dennis Oz: Wow.

Rebecca Pogonitz: And if they wanna part ways, they will part ways.

Dennis Oz: Because yes, we know that not all these clients are a good fit for you. Right. I believe that are, sometimes we have to say no at the beginning just because they may be a right fit.

Right, part ways. They will part ways. Folks, we learned a lot about these sessions here, and Rebecca is talking about the same thing here. And thanks so much, Rebecca. Well, not all these clients are really good for you at the same time that sometimes you have to say no. Am I right? Rebecca, what do you think?

Let me ask you this. Hold on. What do you think about saying no? What do you think that is? Saying no is a big power or what do you think should be say? First of all, it is hard to say no. Especially

Rebecca Pogonitz:A lot of us who have grown up in the world, some of us with more trauma than others, and we become people pleasers, right?

Right. But the important thing about saying no is that it becomes a win win for each of us. Um, the first thing I say, if a client hands me a picture and they say, I want this, I will just graciously say, then I do not wanna waste your money. I am not the designer for you. You could go to Walter Smith or, but working with me

is a different experience. Um, you, the value I bring is artistry and pushing your envelope a little bit. And if you just are not there and I totally get it, then I am not the designer for you because how could I take their money? And it has happened to me when I was not having the self confidence at the first meeting, a client showed me some pictures and said, this is what I want.

And the last designer they worked with was a salesperson at Walter Smith, and that is cool. That is cool. I should have realized that I was not the right designer for them because it is my natural inclination to start analyzing different options and options they have never thought about before. That is where the intellectual property comes in, and then everything I presented, they came back and said, but we said we wanted this.

So obviously we were not a good fit. Right? And inevitably the engagement ceased, right? They ceased the engagement. Okay. I will say it. I was fired. But it was, it was, it was meant to be. And I should have identified that at the beginning when they said, and for me it was, it was sort of the mindset, oh my gosh, how am I gonna pay my mortgage next month?

I better take this job. And it was such a learning experience, so that, you know, nothing is a failure. Nothing, any learning experience, no matter how painful it is, an experience to learn and grow. And so while, you know, I held onto a lot of shame about that and remorse, um, it is priceless to be able to say to someone, I am not for you.

You know,

Dennis Oz: This is a really good, seriously golden nugget and a big mindset shift for our listeners if they are trying to say yes to everything else. And just like you described Rebecca. We have a moment of saying that, letting the opportunity go because this is not an opportunity for you, folks.

It is gonna be waste of time sometimes, and you will be struggling to deliver. And just like Rebecca said, well, what I understand is just try to take it easy and do not say yes to everyone in your, it is a tough

Rebecca Pogonitz: Skill, especially when you know. You know, you could really use the money. Right? And I have been there and, and you know, it is a trade off. It is, but I can tell you, and this is what I have recently experienced in my career, is having internally truly a sense of self worth and value. It is almost a metaphysical spiritual occurrence where automatically you are putting out that vibration. And it is gonna come back to you. So even though you said no to that door that closed and that door closed, it is a metaphysical thing.

And, sorry, I cannot be more articulate about now. One day I am gonna give a TEDx talk on it and growing a design business through metaphysics, but it is happening to me now. I raised my rate fifty percent a few weeks ago, and I have already brought in four new projects without batting an eyelash that I adore and I am creative and my clients are amazing.

So there is a, that is a whole nother topic, Dennis, but I can say that if you are getting that bad feeling, anything, say no, it is not worth it.

Dennis Oz: Thanks so much. Because

Rebecca Pogonitz: Another opportunity is right around the corner.

Dennis Oz: Exactly. Yeah, exactly. So it is going to just take this opportunity and slip through your fingers and thank you so much for sharing this.

Mm hmm. And I hope it was like, folks, it is going well for you when you are tuning in here that folks, I believe we are enjoying the conversation as much as I am. So I have another interesting question for Rebecca. Mm hmm. Well, AI, it is just a lot parts here and there. And since ChatGPT, Gemini, right now, Elon is playing a rock game.

So many different things, but I am sure that we have a reflection in the design area.

Rebecca Pogonitz: Yeah. Yeah.

Dennis Oz:How do you see it fitting to design interior design work? Or how do you utilize AI today in your business? Or how do you just maybe in your personal life, it is also something as use case.

How do you play this game?

Rebecca Pogonitz: Well, I, the number one thing I would say, because when, you know, I do not know, it was probably five, ten years ago in our industry, they were saying that robots were gonna be on construction sites and everyone was getting scared, you know? So the number one thing I was gonna say is,

Look, see the good in it, not the evil. Okay? Because that is what is happening in my life, is I am embracing it. And yes, it is so much, and there are experts in our industry to speak about this. Um, I am, the way I have been utilizing it is slowly but surely I can say, number one, I have been using it in my marketing.

Not that I am generating articles from AI, but you can take an article that you have written and have AI go through it and catch the SEO keywords and put in SEO keywords, and that is perfectly legit. And of course, you want the article to be in your voice and to represent your brand. So I have been using it a little bit in marketing.

Of course I use ChatGPT, not as much as a lot of my friends, but I am slowly but surely, you know, I am in a B and I meeting and it is like, what is a B? And I ask for an interior designer if I am sleepy in the morning, you know what I mean? But, but, and then I just embellish it. But in terms of design, yes.

You can literally type in, let us say I meet a client and they tell me that they kind of want that Ralph Lauren feel with lots of textures and color. I literally could put into ChatGPT those words, and I can get these mood boards. They will create these mood boards and then some designers a few years ago, I think now, you know, everyone is just embracing it in our industry, would say, yeah.

We are the designers? No, no, those are just the mood boards and it is fast, easy visuals. And I, you know, just speaking about this, I am getting inspired. I wanna go, you know, I am gonna try that for a project I am working on now. So, thank you, Dennis. Yeah, there we go. Because I said to him, I am gonna put together some inspiration boards so we can design a, design a design style for you.

So, um, I mean, gosh, there is so much more and I have friends who, you know, architects who are doing so many innovative things, but I can say that AI is fantastic for our industry.

Dennis Oz: Well, thank you so much because you just also talked about something that the next question that I am gonna about,

Okay. I was gonna ask you, how do you play the marketing game? Because marketing is, we know there is a value in it and I know folks, you are here today and you are not like a decades of experience, just like Rebecca in the area sort of, because might be that one of these like really known designers in the area, if you are really

early stages in your careers. You may not be like a person who is there for many, many decades. There will be, of course, there will be a difference and the marketing things might be different. But Rebecca, in your world, I would like to ask you the marketing struggles that you might have because, and also how you would like to tackle those.

What do you think is just like the biggest marketing challenge and just I would say a moving target maybe. And then how do you tackle those challenges?

Rebecca Pogonitz: I would say the biggest challenge is that it is a moving target and it changes and the algorithms and all of a sudden Instagram is announcing, do not have hashtags, and then Instagram is saying, have hashtags, and then your audience wants you to see you on it, on Instagram, but no LinkedIn, you know, because they are affluent and, and so I can say that the biggest challenge is, um,

I think I have figured it out for myself, but the biggest challenge is figuring out what works for you. And yes, if it, social media is so great for brand exposure and twelve years ago, I was like, I called myself the social media queen. I was doing video marketing when no one else was. I have some of those videos

on my website that still, you know, get me business because people know me when I walk in the door. But then I got hacked in 2020 and I had to start over. And then I, this leads to the next part of your question where, how do you deal with those challenges? You have to really, really hone in on what your niche is and who you are and how you want

to be heard and your messaging, and I say do that first instead of just shooting from the hip, which I was doing for a while and just spinning my wheels. And it is not about all the likes. And that is what I was shooting for twelve years ago when I did not feel as good about myself. It is not about the likes, it is about the ROIs.

Are you getting business from it now? There are a lot of designers, and I have friends who do get business off of Instagram. That is their niche and that is their talent. And I get it. And I am so happy for them. And I, the way I have grown my business is always relationship building. And it does not mean that I am not thinking, okay, how can I massage social media and everything?

So what I did, my strategy this year is, you know, interviewing so many marketing agencies, because I have, I have invested thousands and thousands and thousands in the past of dollars into PR agencies and marketing strategy agencies. Find the one, well, when you are ready, work with an agency that will adapt to your business and what your budget is.

And right now I am just interviewing a ton of marketing agencies for when I do have that little extra money to invest in digital marketing and really come up with a targeted niche campaign. And if I do not come up with it, I am not gonna do anything else. It is just I am being stubborn right now and that could be a good thing or a bad thing.

Am I making sense, Dennis?

Dennis Oz: Yeah, of course. Amazing.

Rebecca Pogonitz: You know,

Dennis Oz: you are talking about

Rebecca Pogonitz: it is

Dennis Oz: really important thing. Yeah, that is right. Marketing agencies especially. Well, Rebecca, I do not wanna cut you off here, but you know, I, no, go ahead. I want you to continue, but folks, there are a couple of things that you need to like really

automate in your business, you have to automate your lead flow. You have to automate your operations, and you have to automate your hiring, and you will be working on your business. This is why Rebecca is talking about hiring an agency. Maybe most of you guys among our listeners, Rebecca, unfortunately they got some bad experiences

with the people. I really respect everybody’s work, but sometimes people are working, there is mama’s basement while they are offering them millions. So, you know, there is a really big like selling the dreams type of things when it comes to marketing because it is just like, oh my God, I can grow my business millions and millions in one year.

Sometimes it is not real, but they get to that idea. But playing the game, just like you said. Interviewing people, understanding what they offer

Rebecca Pogonitz: Yes. And figuring out who you are. That is the most important thing, is who are you and how do you wanna set yourself apart? And this year has been a huge year of personal and professional growth for me.

In terms of, I have really honed in my messaging and when you do that and you really realize why you are doing what you are doing. All of a sudden, new ideas come to you on how to reach people or new ideas, new goals come to you. I have a new goal now that I am almost afraid to put it out into the universe, but my dream is, and it is funny, people are gonna laugh at me, but especially my colleagues.

Because for years I used to say, oh, I am a dinosaur. But that was just a limiting belief. My dream now is to take all this technology that is available to us, right? And, you know, I am all about fostering mental health. I am a huge mental health awareness advocate. Mental health, emotional health, spiritual well, health and wealth.

There is such a thing. I never thought of it that way, but I want to learn about technology that can take that to another level, whether it is the kind of air we breathe in our homes, whether yes, I advise people to get plants for their homes, but I wanna start, I wanna create healing homes. That is what I wanna do.

I wanna market a healing home. Right? You are the first to hear it publicly, Dennis.

Dennis Oz: And at the same time, fifteen thousand people heard about it. So yeah, this is good.

Rebecca Pogonitz: But so I, what I am saying is, and there is no way through all this marketing and how to play the game of marketing, if I did not look inside and really say, what do I really wanna do?

Now I know who to, who I need to start reaching out to, and then it is really like, it is just, it is like law of attraction. Everything, just the universe just starts sending you your cues.

Dennis Oz: Since this is a really interesting idea. Thank you so much for sharing, folks. You see these things happen at our show.

This is great. This is great. And you comment level of our speakers here. How they are open, how they are really sharing because we know world class people share and they are here sharing with you. So thank you so much for this, Rebecca. Well, I am not letting Rebecca go, so I have a couple more, I have one more question for her, but I am sure we already had an amazing session until this time.

So thanks so much for staying with us with this session. Either you are listening or watching, this is an amazing session. I am really enjoying every minute of it. Every second of it. Well, I am glad. Rebecca, here is my last question for you today. For our fellow designers and remodelers or anybody trying to really start and scale their own business, the early years can feel really overwhelming.

And for those who are really struggling or feeling really overwhelmed, what is one piece of advice you would give to that person who is trying to build a design or remodeling firm today?

Rebecca Pogonitz: Build your community, build your community, your support network. Build. And oftentimes I will get approached by other designers and say, I am so alone.

I am in this studio. And I am like, call me if you need a resource network and just befriend other designers. Even just networking. It does not have to be in your industry, you know, Chamber of Commerce or moms groups on Facebook, or I went to a coffee in Morton Grove and I met another designer, happened to be, and now I am referring her business and we support each other.

I think the strongest thing I would advise is build your network and do not be afraid to ask for help and ask questions. And I mean it when I say it. If out there is listening to me, shoot me an email. And if I can connect you to anyone, if you have any questions, if I connect you with any resources, because I just wanna give back because that is how I have grown as a business woman.

Dennis Oz: This is such a big generosity. Thank you so much, Rebecca. Well, all the things you shared today, I was gonna ask you what is the best way to get back? If there is someone as a follow up question, you said it is your website and they can send you an email from that? Or is that

Rebecca Pogonitz: Yes. Yeah, there is a contact form on there or my email is rebecca@gogodesigngroup.com

I am on LinkedIn. I believe Dennis, that is how you found me. Yes. Thank you very much. And yeah.

Dennis Oz: Thank you. Well, because the things that you have shared today, I am sure it is gonna be like giving a big, if we can create some shifts for you guys, that is the most important thing.

Rebecca Pogonitz: Oh my gosh, I love that word shift.

Dennis Oz:Yes.

Rebecca Pogonitz:Yes.

Dennis Oz: Well, I cannot thank you enough for sharing all your knowledge, thank you, experience today with us. Well, folks, that was another episode of Remodeling Success Podcast. How cool and amazing episode it was, right? And yes, we will be continuing. Folks, this is pretty much like sums up the things that we discussed today.

We are gonna see you next time. Goodbye.