Dennis Oz: Welcome back to the Remodeler Success Podcast. Today I have a very special guest with over a decade of experience in the remodeling industry. He has really pioneered the design and build concept to streamline all these projects and ensure happy client satisfaction. He has held significant leadership roles in our industry. We’re going to talk about that, and his commitment to quality and also excellence has really earned him a stellar reputation in our industry. I’m so excited to host today, Chris Egner. Chris, welcome to the show.

Chris Egner: Thanks for having me. You’re too kind.

Dennis Oz: Chris, you have an amazing background, and also you have done so many amazing things in the past for our industry. Let’s start. Could you please introduce yourself?

Chris Egner: Sure. Chris Egner. I’m from the Milwaukee, Wisconsin area, a suburb of Milwaukee. I own a design-build firm that I have transitioned into design only, and we’ll talk about that. I also own a four-season sunroom dealership. So, we’re still active in that and building those products.

Dennis Oz: This is great. So, you own this business, and you are actually in the industry for many, many years. Can you tell us how you got started in the remodeling industry? What drew you to this field?

Chris Egner: Yeah. Well, it’s almost by accident, really. You know, 30-some years ago, I was running a motorcycle dealership. That was awesome. It was a small family business. I was not part of that family. And when it came time for the current owner to pass things on, again, I wasn’t family. So at that point, I had been there since I was about 14 years old. Never looked for a job in my life. But I found myself wondering what I was going to do next. Years prior to that, I had bought my first home when I was 21 years old and not very bright and decided I should put a hot tub in one of the bedrooms. I bought that from a company that sold hot tubs but was also a four-season sunroom dealership. I got to know that small family just from seeing home shows, buying chemicals from them, and was in there one day. And the son said, “Hey, why don’t you come and sell sunrooms for us?” I had no experience, had no knowledge whatsoever, but I thought, I’ll try this, and that’s really how I got started. From that point, I was a commission salesperson who had to pay out of my commission structure the architect on staff to do the drawings for the permits and what have you and decided, you know what, if I teach myself how to do drawings, I can save some money here. And that’s where that all took off from.

Dennis Oz: This is amazing, hosting a leader on our show today. You held various positions across our association and different positions, including the national president and also national board chair in NARI. What have been some of the most rewarding aspects of these roles?

Chris Egner: Yeah, sure. Great question. I got involved with NARI early on as an inexperienced person in the remodeling business and felt I needed, my insecurities made me think I needed more credibility when I was sitting at a kitchen table with a potential client, all the big players in my marketplace. And I decided we were NARI members, that company that I worked for at the time, which I eventually bought. We were NARI members, but we were only NARI members at the time to be in their home show, their local home show. We did nothing else with it. I learned that they offered education opportunities and, most importantly, a certification program, which I’ve gotten very involved with. I hold five different certifications from NARI. But early on, that’s literally, I wanted that certification. So I was more comfortable and secure in my position, so that got me involved locally in the Milwaukee market with that chapter, and I held roles as the president of the Milwaukee chapter. You know how volunteer goes; when you say yes once, you get asked a thousand times. I found myself years and years later as the national president, the national chair. I’m still on the board nationally. So that was, that’s a long journey, but I can tell you that as that involvement with NARI, the only trade association that’s exclusively for remodeling, that has done more for me personally and my business than any one thing I could point to.

Dennis Oz: Let’s talk about it. Why should we join there as remodelers? Let’s talk about these benefits.

Chris Egner: Yeah, that’s a great idea. Let’s divide this up into what was it for me as a business person. If I was a young person now and knew what I knew now, starting out in this business, I would have gotten involved a lot, a lot sooner. So the benefits, you know, first at the local level in many, many states across the country, there are NARI chapters; some there are not, and you become a national member at that point. But at the local level, if you’re lucky enough to have a NARI chapter in your area, I can tell you the biggest advantage of joining that, I don’t care what they offer, whether it’s a home show or whatever. The biggest advantage is networking with other remodelers. I’m a small company. I’ve always been, you know, three, four employees myself, and then obviously subcontractors. But, you know, you sit in your office at night and scratch your head about this problem or that problem and think you’re the only one going through it. Well, I can assure you, all of those other guys out there sitting in their office are doing the same thing. You get together at these networking events, and you’re sitting with five other remodelers, and now all of a sudden, you know, how do you handle this? How do you handle this? One thing that always blew my mind, basically, was I could be competing at the kitchen table for work from somebody, but I could be at a NARI event with another NARI remodeler, my competitor, and he’d share his information. I’d share my information, and it was good for everybody.

Dennis Oz: World-class people share. Can we say this?

Chris Egner: Absolutely.

Dennis Oz: Because folks, when you join your local chapters, could be NARI or NKBA. When you go there, you will see people are actually having the same experience. Listen, correct me if I’m wrong, Chris, you are not competing with these people if they are in the same round table with you, and they are masterminding with you, right? So that’s the main thing. That’s the main beauty here and throughout our show folks since you are tuning in and you’re listening what we are also sharing here, you know that the participation to our local chapters plays a really crucial role for our business development. So just like Chris said, those are the people that you have the same problem, and also they are world-class people since they are there to share you. And world-class people share. And thank you so much for just bringing this little aspect. That’s a very important aspect to our listeners as well. So Chris, let’s talk about a little bit of, the industry and the trends and challenges. Let’s start with the trends. What do you see any kind of trend that really excites you in the industry? What do you think about it?

Chris Egner: Yeah, I don’t know, I get this question all the time. What are the trends? And I don’t know, I think one of the reasons I enjoy this business is there’s always trends of some sort. During COVID, people were doing outdoor rooms, offices, or whatever. And so there’s always something that drives something. But one of the things that excites me about this business is that every project I’m working on is different in some ways. The trend is that prices are going up, and it’s hard to find help. That trend has been going on for a long time.

The trend is, if you’re in this business, it’s figuring out how am I going to deal with those challenges instead of just letting them be the thing I complain about all the time. Prices are going up. Back to life. It is what it is. But I can tell you, from my personal standpoint, I have seen absolutely zero slowdown in the desire for remodeling. High interest rates are something that scares people right away. However, in our industry, I think we are sitting in the driver’s seat right now. Those high interest rates are locking people into their current homes. Nobody is leaving their home with a 2.75 percent interest rate on their mortgage to go pay 7, 8%. So they’re staying put. However, those homes are getting older or tired, or they just have a desire to improve. The remodeling industry is poised, in my opinion, to continue with the growth we’ve had and maybe even grow faster.

Dennis Oz: So it’s glad to hear that, having this actual economic, current economic situation, I would call it, is actually benefiting the remodelers. It’s because just like you said, homes are getting old, and then people will need remodeling since they’re not buying a new house and trying to do that from scratch. So it will have some good sides and bad sides. That’s what you’re saying here, right?

Chris Egner: Yeah, I think when COVID happened, we were all scared. We thought, “Oh my God, my business is going to come to a screeching halt,” and look what it did for us. It was some of the best times for some remodelers ever in their careers. I think we’re, you know, as far as a trend I’m seeing, and you know, again, as I mentioned, I’ve been a design-build remodeler for 30 years. However, about five years ago, I transitioned that to design only number one. It’s what I like doing more than anything. So now I’m working with 30 other remodeling companies that I do design work for, or custom home builders, whatever. But I get to see and hear more than what my little world is, what their world is also. And I would say most of the stuff I work with are well-heeled higher-end clients. So, you know, and money’s not always, but I will say one trend I’m seeing is people are now sensitive to the cost of things. It was a couple of years ago. It didn’t matter what it cost. I want it. Let’s go now. You know, being a little more value-conscious in the design process. Maybe we’re cutting back something, or maybe we’re not getting the highest-end appliance that could fit in that space. And a lot of projects now that I’m seeing where we’re maybe going to do them in phases instead of all at once. We’re going to do this, and then we’ll do the bathroom next year. So that might be a trend. So there’s always going to be pressure from price. But I would not let it slow you down from thinking that, you know, the world’s going to come to an end and you got to pull back. I would say, make some noise, market, get your name out there, get in front of the right clients.

Dennis Oz: All right,

Chris Egner: and we can talk more about that if you want.

Dennis Oz: I have marketing questions. Yeah, and I’m also so excited about it. We always keep the marketing questions through the end of the session since most of the people would like to come here and learn more about how you market and what are the marketing tricks and tips. So we’ll talk about that. But before going there, let’s talk about some challenges. I’m sure that you have so many challenges in the past, and I’m sure these challenges are current challenges for most of our listeners right now. And if they’re watching this one, probably they can learn something. Can you give me an example of a challenge that’s really hit a hard time, but you take to a positive outcome? Do you have any kind of an example for us?

Chris Egner: Yeah, a couple. I would say, you know, the challenge and, you know, when I changed my business to design-only, part of it was because of the challenge of finding help, right? I still, in my Sunroom business, I still need help. We still got to build Sunrooms, and, you know, I can’t build it with a computer kind of thing. So I know everybody struggles with that. One of the things that have helped me tremendously would go back to the trade association, NARI for me. You know, it’s fine networking with other remodelers. They’re all having the same trouble. However, somebody might have somebody that’s available right now because they’re stuck on a job, and they can’t move forward with it. “Can I borrow your guy there?” Or, you know, “Do you have somebody that you know of?” Or, “Are you slowing down? Is there somebody I can take from?” You know, it’s, again, we can work as a team, a community, whatever you want to call it. There are people out there. I will say NARI has been very involved in trying to drive interest in the trades with the younger generation. That was something that kind of went away. It’s taken a very long time. And we have lobbied Congress. We have, you know, we work with trade schools, what have you, but we are seeing, all of a sudden in the last year, we are seeing major improvements in people getting into the trades at a younger age, seeing the value of it. And it’s getting better. But it’s, you know, we’ve had 15 years of a lull of people getting into the trades. It could take a little time for the backlog to catch up. But I’d say that’s one of the biggest challenges. I think we’re all facing is help. But I think if, you know, if you really want to do something, get involved in most major cities. There are internships that the States typically will help you with. You’ll get involved with some high schools in your area. Maybe you can get some kids to job shadow, you know, your team or what have you. You never know when you’re going to find that next rock star who just loves what he’s doing with his hands and get involved in that, I would say.

Dennis Oz: Well, thank you so much for this profound insight because yes, there are a lot of things when we look at our challenges and things that we learn, this is again here, folks, when you are listening to all these, I’m sure a part of you is actually experiencing these problems right now. And another part of you guys will see this in the future. So maybe you’re already experienced then, and you can just compare this actual experience with yours and understand what to do next if you ever see this problem again. So this is why it’s really important to share all these things and learn from the great source like Chris Egner here. We were talking about the challenges, but Chris, if you just look at your entire career, I just wanted to ask you some key lessons that you have learned. Can you give us one or two?

Chris Egner: I’ll say the biggest lesson I learned and the hardest lesson it was to learn was learning to say no to a project or a client. It’s hard to do when you need to make payroll or what have you, but I can tell you the jobs that I either lost money on, which were few and far between, thank God, or didn’t make what I should have made were the jobs I knew I should have said no to. Figure out what you’re good at. Nobody is good at everything. Figure out what your best projects are, but also figure out who your best clients are. When we’re talking with a client early on, you know, they’re interviewing us and trying to decide if we’re the right fit. We should be doing the same for them. And if it’s not right, if there’s something, you know, sometimes there’s personalities, and that’s the reason. But most of the time, it’s just, is this the right project for me? Am I capable of doing this the way I do all my other projects? Does it fit into my processes and my systems, or am I changing what I do normally to try and get this job? That’s where I think you run into trouble.

Dennis Oz: You know, let’s dive in there. You have to understand and qualify these prospects, right?

Chris Egner: Yep.

Dennis Oz: What is your process? How do you understand these people if they’re a good fit or not a good fit? Maybe they are looking for something, but maybe you’re not a good fit. That could be the scenario. How do you qualify them?

Chris Egner: And that’s changed a lot over the years. Again, before it was, what is amazing, which is really good, right? Yeah. Before, it was, you know, “What can I say to get an appointment, to get over to your house, to see you and give you a proposal?” And now, it’s literally, I think that I think sales in general, whether it’s trick, you know, our industry or anything else, the world is different. I mean, we should be consultants. We should not be selling anything. We should be helping homeowners get what’s right for them. And if I’m the right person to get them what’s right for them, perfect. Let’s move forward. If I’m not, I have no problem telling somebody I’m not the right person, and let me recommend this other NARI member down the block who can do it for you, and I know they’ll do a good job for you. There’s plenty of work for all of us, and I can tell you those jobs that I took because I needed it or I thought I needed it or I wanted this year’s sales goal to be even higher. Those are the ones that I pulled my hair out. It just, it. Again, you can’t be the best at everything. Do what you’re best at. And again, look back. Who are your best clients? What jobs went the smoothest? And start trying to figure out what about that made it different than the one that was a problem.

Dennis Oz: Right. This is such a golden nugget here, folks. You see, the qualification here may bring you the success that you’re looking for, and if you cannot really disqualify the wrong people or disqualify yourself from the wrong project, that may have some consequences on your business growth. That’s the most important thing you have to consider when you’re looking at your whole business growth. Just like Chris mentioned, and he gave us a detailed explanation about it. So Chris, let’s take the conversation to the future of remodeling. What do you see for the future of our industry? I mean, there are some emerging trends and also technologies, and I don’t know what tools that you really use or any kind of fixtures or appliances? I don’t know, something in your business or something in your design. What do you think?

Chris Egner: Yeah, so, you know, technology is always going to be the future. We don’t even know what technology is going to be five years from now that’s going to be affecting us or helping us. You know, obviously AI is the big talk right now. I would tell you to slow your roll. I have people telling me that, you know, this AI thing’s gonna, I tell it I want a mid-century modern kitchen and push a button. It’s gonna—I’ve seen what it creates. The one thing I can tell you is don’t think that’s ever going to replace you. We have to talk to our clients, we have to figure out what they need, and we, the experts, have to figure out the best way. However, there are things that can assist us in making that process go faster. It can help us explore other options. I use software to design. I draw in 3D, I use a product called Chief Architect. I’ve used it for 20-some years. I’ve tried a number of others in the remodeling world or residential new construction. I believe it is the most powerful tool out there in helping clients envision what, you know, I know what it’s going to look like in my head, but how do I communicate that to my client? And I, when I started, I wasn’t chiseling on a stone, but it was pretty close with a pencil. And when they wanted to change, it was get out the eraser or throw the page away and start over. So, you know, those technologies are increasing rapidly. The younger generation might have a longer learning curve. Believe me, I’m working with some younger people that pick this up very quickly, and they’re a big asset. I would say the trend is the younger generation that is technically savvy is going to be a big boom to us. Embrace it. Look at, you know, many manufacturers, whether it’s a cabinet company, fixtures, appliances, you’d be surprised how much they offer in the way of CAD drawings, technical support that’s available. Using that technology, I can import, you know, the exact appliance a client wants into that kitchen and show them not only how it’s going to fit but what it is going to look like and what have you. So I think that’s a very powerful tool.

Dennis Oz: Great. Well, I’m hearing from other designers that they are also using several other tools, and I believe there is no one correct answer when you’re picking your software. Right. They all serve different purposes, right?

Chris Egner: Right. I’m sure there’s a reason that you picked your actual Chief Architect you’re using. Some other people are using some different tools. Do you think there’s a correct answer to this one? It’s all about your needs. What do you think?

Chris Egner: I think it’s your needs, you know what? And I think that goes the same with all software. You know, a lot of people are using management software for their company, whether it’s Buildertrend or something else. And again, they all do, you know, CoConstruct, whatever. They all do certain things. You need to know what you want it to do before you can decide which is the best one. And then I’ll say, what’s important is if you’re going to pick something, you better commit to it, take the time to learn it. Most of the people I see using software, that’s design software, management software, are only scratching the surface of what that software is capable of doing. So, again, you’re right. There’s no right answer. What works for you? What do you understand, what works in your workflow, and what gets you the result you’re looking for?

Dennis Oz: Sometimes a lot of tools may create a problem of overdoing something that we don’t really want to see because simplification is the thing, the real benefit that you can also do for your business. We have a lot of great tools, but if you can do it a simple way, just like Chris said, there is no correct answer for this one, just go for it and use that software. There is no correct answer for your software needs. So let’s take this conversation to marketing. I’m sure that you have used several marketing strategies in the past. Have you ever found a channel that really brings you the most effective leads?

Chris Egner: Maybe I’m not the expert on this only because one of the marketing tools I used was joining a trade association. So, you know, I was doing consumer home shows. I was very visible with that. I was very involved with my local chapter, which got me doing, you know, radio shows, TV shows as, you know, an expert. Um, so that exposure. Um, the sunroom side of my business, which I continue in, you know, my manufacturer, Four Seasons, the brand, the product I use and buy from, they do a very good job of generating interest leads, that sort of thing, social media, what have you. So I would tell everyone, figure out what products you’re using. You’d be surprised at how much support the manufacturers have available, just ask if you’re using, you know, Marvin windows or what have you get ahold of your rep and find out what do they have available? You’d be surprised at how much they can help you with lead generation and what have you. But I’ve over the years, I’ve done radio shows. I’ve done radio commercials. I’ve done TV commercials now with social media, with online channels, YouTube, I would tell myself if I was myself starting out today. Start creating content, start creating, you know, some blogs, what have you, get out there. It’s very easy to get seen. Just make sure what you’re doing is credible. Again, we should not be out here trying to con somebody into setting an appointment with us or what have you. We need to do our work, do our homework, and become an expert, and then share that expertise with the people you can help.

Dennis Oz: As a podcast host, my ideal speaker is someone who is just answering the questions before I ask. I was going to ask Chris, what would you do if you just start from scratch today and you just learned the answer, you’ve got to do content. You’ve got to put the content out there. It’s going to bring you authority in the area, and you will be in front of these people on social media. So once you have more and more exposure, you will see even if these guys may not be in the market, right Chris? Sometimes they are not in the market, but you don’t really know the power of word of mouth and imagine the power that you create on these people, the authorities that you build over these people. So this is really profound.

Chris Egner: I’ll add a little to that. And I’m guilty of this and always have been, we design or we build these beautiful projects, but we are so busy that the beautiful project gets done, and we’re on to the next one. Did I take pictures of it? Did I interview that client to get a referral or a testimonial? I enter projects in the NARI competitions. We have national competitions like any other awards program. You know, that kind of stuff goes a long way. It’s work. It takes some time, but it will pay dividends.

Dennis Oz: Great. Great to hear. Let me ask you this then. It’s also a marketing question. I’m sure over the decades, you have a massive word-of-mouth database. People know you from somewhere, maybe the clients that you have many years, maybe their kids are coming to you. We never know because it’s decades, right? So, how do you describe the power of referrals and word-of-mouth clients to you as a business owner?

Chris Egner: Yeah, you know, and that kind of goes without saying in any industry, but you know, a referred client, somebody we’ve done business with, like you say, you know, with them in the past or their neighbor or their family members or what have you, and that project went well, you know, you’re already 80 percent of the way to that project, right? You’ve already established trust. You’ve already established your credentials and your ability. I will say, and I don’t want to sound like a broken record and keep going back to the trade association or NARI or what have you, but really at the end of the day, that’s really what it’s all about. I can’t tell you how many referrals I’ve gotten from other NARI members that again, it wasn’t their best project fit. “Chris can help you with this. This is right up his alley, and this is gonna be great.” And I reciprocate the same way. So I think, again, if you’ve got a referral there, you’re more than halfway there.

Dennis Oz: That’s exactly it. Referrals are gold for most businesses. Sometimes you’ve got to rely on them because marketing is an investment, and you may not always have the resources for it. But your referrals, folks, your referrals are your actual raving fans. Let me ask our subscribers here: are you sending at least a Christmas something, like a celebration, at least an email, not a postcard? Try to do it because your referrals are your raving fans. Every time they look at their kitchen or bathroom, they will definitely remember you once you keep reminding yourself. That’s the most important part, just like Chris underlined. So Chris, let’s wrap up because sharing your expertise and real information is great for our audience. Among our audience, we have some business owners that have already started but don’t really know what to do next, right? Just wanted to pick your brain about it. Let’s say they are in the early stages of their business. They have some sort of team, but not a full team in place. What do you think they should focus on to ensure that they deliver results for their clients?

Chris Egner: Yeah, I think the team, and that’s the biggest challenge for all of us. I don’t care if you’ve been at this a year or if you’ve been at this for 30 years, but the team you have, make sure it’s the right team. You know, in other words, I have dealt with employees, team members, whatever you want to call them, that drove me crazy, but I needed somebody to do the job. That’s not always the best thing for you. Continuously develop your rock stars and move on from the ones that are holding you back or turning your rock stars into less than rock stars. And then from that, I would also be careful. You know, a lot of the trouble we’re having right now with finding help is most of our guys are just aging out. I mean, the average qualified carpenter is in his fifties. Start getting some young people to work with them and start making sure your guys in their 50s and 60s are actually helping them. But give your guys an incentive to do it. Give them something for that. They’re going to develop the next round of people.

Dennis Oz: It’s like an investment. Exactly. It also creates a circle. The experienced just coach the ones who like to learn more. So this is how we help our communities. This is a great, in my sense, such an eye-opener. Thank you so much, Chris. Well, folks, I hope you enjoyed this episode. Chris, if someone would like to have some follow-up questions among our listeners, what is the best way to get back to you? Just keep in mind, there will be thousands of people. If you share your cell phone number, I don’t want to bombard you with calls, but what would be the best way to reach out?

Chris Egner: Yeah, I mean, I’ll actually give you my email address. I’m happy to answer questions, and it’s just chrisegner@aol.com. So DBR as in design, build, remodel.

Dennis Oz: Thank you so much for this one. And Chris, one more time, thank you so much for sharing all your wisdom and golden nuggets with us and helping our community and all our listeners to grow their businesses, solve their problems, and ensure that they can get help and get their business to the next level. And thank you so much, folks. That was another episode of the Remodeler Success Podcast. We’re going to see you next time. Goodbye. Thanks.